LB: If no one objects, I asked a fellow staff member to come join me in the afternoon. The other Girl Scout education director has been working in adult education for 10 years and she's never been involved in an adult education classroom. Actually, she's just been selected to be instructor of trainers, a guest lecturer at the national office in New York. She goes up in two or three weeks and one of the things they do in that training session is adult education theory and she's actually role-playing Dr. Knowles. So what do you think about that?

JH: Interesting!

LB: Yeah, so, and we talked about "Dialogues." This women--we dialogue all the time about adult ed and I bring back information from class and we talked about my article this week and so we just dialogue all the time. And I really think that not only would she gain a lot from joining us, I think we'd gain a lot from her. She's a little nervous about coming.

RoV: Is she coming on her own or are you going to have to pick her up?

LB: Yeah, she's coming on her own. She's coming on her own so she can meet…. Are we doing the library thing in the morning?

JH: Yes, 9:30-11 o'clock, we have our initial library session and we'll see whether or not that fulfills our needs and whether we want to go further. I had a little bit of difficulty in getting that part of it worked out, so if it doesn't satisfy what we're interested in, we have two things: one is that Peter Manet, who is the librarian who's coming this morning, said he'd be glad to make individual appointments with us to go through things that have to do with digging into the library archives; we also can have an initial session. We'll talk with him about what we tentatively have planned for two weeks from today to have a follow-up session if we need to do that kind of thing. So at 9:30 he's supposed to come in. But I want to give Dusan a little bit of background.

RoV: Also, Dr. Henschke, before we do that. Both Dr. Henschke and I are taping. Mine is the little microcassette and his is the regular size. So what I would ask is that you speak loudly, preferably one at a time. This is the transcription from the last class-I'll send it around so you can look at it if you want. I cleaned it up a little bit. I left out a few things that were kind of irrelevant but you can get the flavor. It's conversational and that's what it ought to be. It's not a textbook, it's conversational, interactive.

JH: Thirty-three pages.

RoV: Session 1, so it'll probably be 150 pages before we're done, I guess, but the idea was to capture what we're doing in here so it's helpful to speak slowly enough that it's distinct, and preferably one at a time if we can sort of direct it that way [toward the recorder]. Okay, thanks.

JH: Okay.

RuV: Near the end last session, John, we talked about creating an overall reference listing of all of the citations that we have looked at. I'll be delighted to be the collector of those.

RuV: What we also can do--what I'm willing to do if there is an interest--I don't mind setting up a website maybe initially for this course. I don't mind keeping it up for some period after. If I do it, then it would be based on the Logan College server. In the long run, John, I suspect you would want that available on the UMSL server. I don’t mind doing the initial work and then turning it over to somebody here if that's what this class wants--if we think there is a benefit. That way it is available to people like Dr. Savicevic--is that how his name is pronounced?--and Dr. ten Have, who is still alive. The rest of them are gone and maybe we can get Brookfield, people like that, to contact us. You can really turn this into an almost neural network, John, if you want. It depends on what you want to do with it.

JH: Well, I think it has some possibilities in light of the kind of response we had at the international unit of the American Association for Adult Continuing Education. We had people from about fifteen countries there and it's just like a real perking up of the discussion. '"Well, I know about this and this and I'd like to talk about that." And we got some of those things tape recorded, but it's going to be at this year's international unit. We also have a Commission of Professors of Adult Education which we're going to continue to have a session at each one of these.

RuV: That is United States or is that international?

JH: Commission of Professors? Well, it's kind of what you'd call United States springboard but it certainly has people from the international community who come to that conference each year. So it is much broader than that.

LB: The other thing that I found is a website on the history of education in childhood, and they have an adult vocational section. It's very weak and they actually say "If you have other sources, if you have other information, please submit it." And I was thinking about whatever we created…

RuV: Who's hosting that?

LB: This is being hosted by the University of Nijmegen in The Netherlands. I would love to have a copy of this.

RuV: Nijmegen was originally a Catholic university. The Netherlands has a crazy political history very much religious--shall I call them 'pillars"--involved in society so every denomination has to start its own university. Somewhere in the 1860's--I'm going to say 1868--my memory on the history is getting to be a little bit--

LB: A lot of the sites right now are very vocational.

JH: Yeah, one of the things I would caution regarding that is the fact that adult education vocational is a very narrow piece of adult education.

LB: Exactly.

RuV: I think maybe sometime today we can get to some of the definitions--at least a few of the articles I read might be impetus for us to start defining the field and its sub-disciplines if you want. And I don't know when you want to get to that. Not something we're going to finish today, but we might start I hope I said. Every university in The Netherlands--and there are fourteen of them--has a faculty of andragologie--andragology--and from what I'm seeing now that may be the most prevalent university-based concentration in any of the countries. I don't think that's common but you've also got to realize that at least what I'm seeing the history of andragology as a university-based subject is weird in The Netherlands. They include some things that most of us would not consider to be part of andragology or adult education.

JH: Like what?

RuV: In the 50's and 60's they tried to pull in social work.

JH: Okay, we have about twenty-five minutes before our librarian comes in and if anyone wants to do an article--or I will or whatever…

MC: I will.

JH: You're ready to go with one?

MC: I sure am.

JH: Okay.

MC: I made copies for everyone. It's a short one so we might be able to go ahead and get it in. First of all, this article--as you can understand from the title, "A Strategy for Addressing the Needs of Adult Learners by Incorporating Andragogy into Vocational Education." Well, to begin with, I chose this article because I'm a certified business ed teacher and that does concern vocational education types so it intrigued me. First of all, since you haven't had a chance to read it, I'll give you a little bit of background into what the article talked about. What the author was saying is that because of a nation at risk, with documentation that outlines various things that schools need to accomplish because it's understood that the schools are going in a wrong direction--this happened in a 1980's--there would be a movement away from high school students taking business ed classes and vocational education classes. And because of that, this would have to be addressed further down the road in adult education environments and so the strength of that particular part of the article is that he actually had a nation at risk to back up the reason behind why this would have to be addressed later on in the school setting. Another strength of the article was that the author suggested using Knowles' paradigm of andragological processes as the most appropriate for vocational education and adult learners, and that was a seven-point program that he had outlined. He referenced Knowles frequently throughout the article and Knowles' viewpoints such as adult being self-directed learners, adults are experienced and ready to learn, all those various terms that all of us are familiar with. And because of that the class would have to be developed in such a way to meet those needs rather than how you would treat a student in high school using a more pedagological approach. What I did like about the article, as well, is that the author gave background information. He explained briefly the difference between pedagogy and andragogy, so if you weren't familiar with pedagogy, you had an idea and you were able to compare and contrast the two. What I really liked about the article was the conclusion and that was that andragogy is far more--this is what is stated--"is far more than a synonym for adult education. It incorporates the idea of treating adults differently than pedagogy has treated children. Adults can remove themselves from an unsatisfying education experience and they're goal-oriented." But he was saying that there is a very big difference between the two and he did go as far as to say that there is a large difference and there's a lot more to it than just a lot of people know about that. The weakness I found in the article was that there was not a specific example given using a particular class like accounting or whatever it would be, using the seven-point process. So I don't think it was specific enough, because it gave the seven-point process that you could adapt, you could use, you could apply it; however, it would have been better if it had said exactly how you could go about doing it and an example. That's what I would have preferred. I see this item contributing to the dialogue and debate in andragogy because I see it as an attempt to outline a practical application of how to teach using the concepts of andragogy. I don't think it is a complete example of an approach to apply it, but I think it's a good attempt because I think it's important to have a specific structure in applying it to a class. So those were the main points that I got out of the article. I thought it was worthwhile because I'd never read anything on that topic before. Those are basically the things that I found in the article that intrigued me. I know you guys haven't had a chance to read it, so based on what I said, does anybody have anything they want to add or something that maybe sparked something that they might want to….

RM: I'd like to, when we come back if we have time, I'd like to follow hers. Mine kind of--that was a great lead-in.

JH: It sets the stage for you.

RM: She does. A perfect segue because just at a quick glance, he's just preaching Knowles. The seven points of andragogy and so forth and the--Pratt, the guy I read--says that's okay but we need to take a look at it from different perspectives and I'd like to tag onto that when we come back. Just one more thing. I've been looking at the dates on some of these things and we're getting a little outdated.

RoV: I think they make--in just skimming over it here--they make the point a couple of times that adult learners are different from children in one regard. In specific, they're not in a compulsory situation usually. They can leave at any time, so that does have to make a difference. Even if for other than human reasons to improve instruction and all the rest of it, so andragogy may have occasion. I have to take exception with something they say. This is not my understanding of what Knowles said or meant or taught and, Dr. Henschke, feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken. Page 9, part 2 says--and it's very specific here--"…teaching from a pedagogical perspective, something not appropriate for adults." I don't think that's what Malcolm Knowles said…

RuV: He said quite clearly the opposite, but that was later in his development. In his early publications he does say…

LB: And this reference is from '75, so it…

RuV: Rosanne, give us which page 9. I guess the bottom number. Where are we?

RoV: Second sentence there. "…teaching from a pedagogical perspective, something not appropriate for adults." Here's what I understand--and, Dr. Henschke, I gave you that chart that I redid. It's on there. It contrasts pedagogy and andragogy, some of the basic tenets. You can pass that around if you want. One of the things it says in one of the little boxes at the bottom is that these are not antithetical methodologies. These are on a continuum and where you have let's say adults being given, as an example, technical training in a highly, let's say, technology-laden area where they have no familiarity, pedagogy may be a very reasonable approach. The idea being that you start where you need to start so they can then develop enough information to then be self-directed or pursue it from there, which is the andragogical jump, or leap.

RuV: Yeah, but really think relatively clearly in Knowles, John, may I call it a late development--1980's or past? And it may have been an interpretation of the title of his text, Andragogy vs. Pedagogy, that got misunderstood in the community. Maybe he never meant it as strongly as a dichotomy, as it was interpreted by readers. Wouldn't be the first time that happens in a field.

LB: Well, I mean, if you look at The Modern Practice of Adult Education by Knowles in '70 and then you go to the latest version, which is '80, in the '80 version Knowles actually says: "I originally defined andragogy as the art and science of helping adults in contrast to pedagogy as the art and science of teaching children." And then he goes on: "So I'm at the point now of saying that andragogy is simply another model of assumptions about learners to be used alongside the pedagological model of assumptions, thereby providing two alternative models for testing out the assumptions as to their pick for the particular situation."

RuV: In fact, later on when I'm presenting one of the articles I reviewed for this session, written by Knowles in I presume '88 or '89, he again says quite clearly that "Hey, I've changed my mind." Well, I hope we have him grow.

JH: A couple of things. I think one of the things we want to do when we talk about these articles is to kind of put them in a context and in an historical context, chronologically and what's going on at the particular time in terms of what is being addressed.

RoV: We need our timeline.

JH: Yeah, we need that already. …and we'll begin to fill that in and flesh that out as time goes on because I think we'll begin to see what some of the things are that are going on. There are a lot of people--and that's one of the biggest criticisms of Knowles--is that he said one thing one time and he said another thing another time. Well, you know…

RuV: So he's human. He developed like the rest of us.

JH: If you want things packed in concrete, well then, that's a fault. That's a kind of a hole in the concrete, if you will.

RoV: It a "criticism!"

SI: Remember, we found that to be true when we studied philosophers. That's true with a lot of philosophers.

RuV: Of course.

RoV: I hope so.

RuV: I mean the whole concept of lifelong learning or adult education would be out the window if it weren't true.

RoV: It's a living science, something that moves and breathes and changes with the developments in the world, in the human condition and everything else.

RM: Discovery. Experience. All that…

JH: For whatever reason, up until that time adult education in this country--despite all the literature that had been produced regarding it, just like Eduard C. Lindeman's book in 1926 that remains the most influential adult in adult education in this country, The Meaning of Adult Education, and he talked about adults being dealt with differently from children. Despite all of that, the field of adult education in this country was languishing if you will, or stumbling, because there was a lot of treatment that went on that people found themselves in adult education settings, from either side--from being a teacher or being a recipient--and the teachers lots of times were people who didn't have backgrounds in adult education and a lot of the research in adult education hadn't been propounded. A lot of the theory and the notions about adult learning hadn't come into existence and, as a consequence, many of the teachers that were in adult education settings were teachers of children. And so they had a tendency to teach the adults and treat them much like they treated their children. And whether or not that was right or wrong for treating children that way was really beside the point. That was the historical context.

RuV: I'm sure none of that would ever happen today. Was that enough sarcasm?

RoV: A little over the top there.

JH: But in addition to that, Malcolm had become, a result of his relationship with Eduard C. Lindeman, involved in adult education more by happenstance or more by the fact that he wanted a career and he studied at Harvard for a career in the diplomatic service. History, government and economics is what he studied at Harvard, and was preparing at the crest of the Second World War, or at the beginning of the Second World War, to make a trip abroad to really get involved in the diplomatic service and he had--when they said they had their quota for that particular time--there would be a year and a half wait before he could go or be appointed and go and do what he had prepared for. Well, as he says, in the meantime he had picked up a wife--or acquired wife and a child, which he felt the need to support. A 30's concept, if you will, but he needed a job. While he was doing his job, he started out as a silk stocking salesman going door-to-door…

RoV: Now I got it. That's how he found his wife!

JH: In any even, he had contact with Eduard C. Lindeman and Lindeman suggested he get involved with some aspect of the NYA, National Youth Administration, of the training of the trainers for that. And then a number of other events took him to the YMCA in Chicago. He was involved in the Young Men's Christian Association and they called him

LB: All those great non-profits!

JH: And the YMCA invited him to come to Chicago. In the meantime he had enrolled in a Master's degree program with Cy Houle at the University of Chicago in adult education and he was responsible for starting an adult education at the Central YMCA in downtown Chicago. He asked himself the question: "How are we going to have the adult education program in the YMCA downtown Chicago serve the people it's supposed to serve?" Well, he figured out that the people they needed to serve were people in the Loop, if you will, the downtown area. And so he went from door to door.

RoV: A salesman's trick.

JH: Okay, a salesman's trick, if you will, and he went around and asked a series of questions: "What's is going on? If anything is going on that you're aware of, what are the kinds of things you'd like to have in terms of if there were an adult education program, and how best can we provide it? And who else should I talk to in the Loop here? Who do you suggest?" And out of that built what he called the "needs assessment." He was doing his needs assessment for the adult education program and developed that and out of that came his book, Informal Adult Education. He'd gathered some pretty strong ideas about what worked with developing that program, what flourished, what didn't flourish. Houle was able to maintain their participants or their students. The notions about what kind of teachers were necessary, what kind of teachers had to be involved, and he wrote the book Informal Adult Education. And then when he left the YMCA, he went for ten years to the Adult Education Association and was first executive director. He was basically doing research at that time and had some additional notions about how to respond to adults. Came to Boston University and in 1960 wrote a number of articles. He wrote a theory piece on competency for teachers in adult education, which he felt the Boston University program was involved in developing that program. And then in 1967 in the workshops had contact with Dusan Savicevic. When Dusan came to one of his workshops and he said: "Malcolm, you're practicing andragogy." Malcolm says: "What-agogy?" And then he explained it and then Malcolm attached in his true philosophical pragmatist perspective he attached some of his own meanings and some of his own background in the informal adult education, his experience in YMCA, as executive director of Adult Education Association, he attached some of those ideas. And when he was given the "Adult Educator Award" at College in the Country in Carrollton, Georgia--he was to come and speak--he used that occasion to do the piece that later the next year appeared in Adult Leadership, which is an adult education magazine, on "Androgogy not Pedagogy." In fact, at that time, he spelled it "a-n-d-r-O-g-o-g-y." Later Merriam-Webster corrected his spelling. Out of that situation that he developed some of these ideas and said: "I found that adults respond more appropriately in this and this and this and this way" in contrast to what he saw was going on in the field and what other people were writing about and some of the interaction and some of the problems that adult educators were having. And so he wrote that article in 1970, published, and was very adamant at that time--I wouldn't call it dogmatic, because I was exposed to a lot of his teaching, and those of us who got into personal contact with him felt that it was like a magnet. There were some new ideas that we'd never been exposed to and we got involved in those things and were excited about it because we found them working for ourselves and things that we could begin to apply. And I think that's the notion, the context, out of which Malcolm kind of pulled eclectically, pulled this thing together and being the enthusiast that he was, ended up being the person who popularized--if you will, and I don't think he started out to say "Well, I'm going to popularize this idea!" He just put it out there and there it was.

RuV: Refresh my memory. Is it in Knowles' dissertation or is it in this history book, or is it in your dissertation where there is a pretty good description of his early activities? Was that your dissertation? As you were talking about his involvement with Lindeman and NYA? Is that where I read it?

JH: A fair amount. Might be. I'm having to refresh my memory on my…

RuV: Gee, you don't remember 27 years later?

JH: Some of it would be in the history book, his dissertation and Andragogy in Action. You probably would have read it some in my dissertation.

JH: Were there any other comments that anybody wanted to make regarding Mary's presentation? I went on kind of a long historical context kind of thing but…

RM: It was good, though.

JH: I think it's always interesting to find out where the person is coming from and get some kind of a context as to why they're saying what they're saying and where that took place. One of the things that I've said to Mary and Paulette and a number of people, when we talk about the stage of the development of our program here and where it will begin to emerge and develop and go in the future, I basically in a 16-year period had certain things in mind and I screened out certain other things that would have been useful in the program, but focused on certain things that I knew I had to do in order to build the program and be responsive to those that were coming that may be interested in the program to see where it went and see how it put that within context. And that's simply the historical thing. I used a lot of the andragogical principles as I understand them even though many times, even before I came to the campus, my colleagues in Extension for 13 years before that would say: "John Henschke bows to the East every morning."

RuV: Nothing wrong with that.

JH: While it may look like that, and maybe there's some aspect of that, that as far as I was concerned was what I felt I needed to do in order to bring the situation to where it is today and what has taken place. What directions it takes in the future, I only ask one thing: that we do not forget the history and do not simply say, "Well, that's past and we'll get rid of that and go on to the future." I think we're always connected in some way to what's gone on before and to what we're trying to create in the future, because both will influence each other.

RoV: We can always take the Suzanne Sugarbaker approach: "Well you know how they say 'history repeats itself?' Well, I just wait till it happens again."

RuV: Dr. Henschke, to an extent what I heard was in terms of maybe an apology or a defense, I feel reasonably strongly there is no need for you to apologize or to defend. I'm brand new to this program. I'm impressed. I think you…my feeling is that when we look back--and I won't go the 50 years that you were charged with, I'll go 25 years from now--we'll look back and we'll see that you've done a superb job building a program and in the process assisting in the interrogation of the field. And if there has been no success other than me in the year plus that I've been in this program, you have provided me--you and your faculty--have provided me with tremendous changes in concepts and understandings. Stuff that I now realize I literally have been searching for all my life. Delighted you are here. You've done what you've done I think very much--and yes it will continue to build.

JH: You can't take every direction.

RuV: And when you get different people involved, the same people involved as they grow older as we said earlier about Malcolm Knowles, I hope lifelong learning means we change.

JH: And that's what adds to the richness, the enrichment as we look to the future and build on the past.

RoV: I couldn't help having that same feeling when I was transcribing the tape from the last session because I thought: "How much of what is now in print would have been saved, would have found it's way into the history?" It sort of like you were saying about doing the Malcolm history while the man was still alive. There is an advantage of doing that, and you're capturing some things that would otherwise go away and never be seen again--especially by the next generation. It was interesting, and I echo what Rudi said, it was interesting that every time you launched into one of these things on the notes, I thought you at some point were saying: "Sorry I got to long-winded there." In fact, that was the most significant piece of the whole transcription in my mind, especially like the Cy Houle episode. I mean that's the history of this process that we're all engaged in.

RM: We need--we need this. I allows us perspective and to carry on because I don't think--has anybody in this room ever met Malcolm Knowles? Ever seen him?

RuV: Actually, with hindsight, the answer is yes. I must have met him somewhere in the early 1980's when I was with Safeco Insurance Company and, by god, I don't remember which conference it was but I do recall now--you know, a year into the program--"Hey, I know this guy!" And I'd always connected him with management. That's why when I started with Dr. Sweeney's course, the introduction course, I had no idea who Malcolm Knowles was. On the management side, I know the concepts of Malcolm Knowles. I hadn't tied the word "andragogy" to it. Self-directed learning, yeah, very much understood.

RM: I'll tell you I came from MU--that's where I got my ed specialist and I had a foundations class over there, and they give a cursory review of Malcolm Knowles over there. I mean it's just like "he's considered the father of--

RuV: Andragogy/

RM: …andragogy.

RuV: Is that how you pronounce it?

RM: That's about it. So if you want to know any more, go out and find out.

JH: Elliptical reference.

Ruv: I would call it dismissive.

RM: And again you have to understand where they're coming from. It's taught in the vocational groups over there and that's about all the exposure you get.

JH: I remember when my defense of my dissertation was going on and of course all the people who were on my dissertation committee were colleagues of Malcolm and one of the guys said: "Well, why didn't you ask me? Why didn't you do a dissertation on me? Why is it you want to do one on Malcolm?" I mean all this stuff, you just sort of bow down to him and you don't make any critical comments. And one of the other dissertation faculty members on the dissertation committee said: "But on the other hand, you probably didn't notice he included the article in Adult Leadership where Jack Crabtree talked about Malcolm and the "group dynamics boys doing the voodoo rites up in Bethel, Maine. That certainly wasn't uncritical." I tried to include that perspective and it was interesting with Malcolm, after I was all done with it and Malcolm read the dissertation. I said: "You may want to read it along the way." And he said: "No, I'll wait until after you're completely done, and then I'll sit and read it in one setting." And when he has a chance--I gave him a copy of it and he read it. He wrote me a note afterward and he said: "I sat down one afternoon and evening and read the thing completely through. I have to say that there were a number of points in which I was confronted." I did that particular thing. Another place was where Malcolm was describing some of the stuff that was going on in the Adult Education Association and some of the struggles that were going on with the high funding from the Ford Foundation and his doing the "group dynamics boys" thing and he was trying to balance that psychological side with the liberal side that the Ford Foundation was interested in funding, with the "Great Books" and that kind of stuff. And in that whole process I said he--there were people that said he's wasted a lot of the money that the Ford Foundation had given. And when he was describing that whole thing, I read some documents that talked about how he did not listen to what was going on as far as the Ford Foundation was concerned and how the field was. And yet when I read his description of the process of what was going on and I analyzed that as saying Malcolm Knowles described the processes thus and so and thus and so. But he also described the process and you got the feeling that as he was describing the process, he thought his description of the process was a description of the process that everybody was agreeing to rather than it really was what his perspective was on it. Other people were saying other things and they were very unhappy with some of the stuff that was going on with him. There's another instance where he felt confronted. He described it and used his description as if that was what everybody would say.

RoV: I imagine it would be very hard to break new ground in any field without having the people who have a vested interested in seeing their pet theories and projects promoted or maintained disagree with you or be venomous about the process, frankly. Never mind egos and "Why don't you do one on me?" and all that other stuff. But I think that's part of what we were saying before. That's why it's important to break new ground, to look into new ways of doing things because, as I said last week during the last class, Malcolm didn't have all the information either. We have new things coming on and the field is still growing and should continue to do so.

RM: May I hand out an article here that maybe you can shed some light on because I believe you were intimately involved with this. The articles I read were anti--not anti-Malcolm so much as just not taking him for the saint he is. And this is one that's cited a lot. This is Carlson.

JH: Bob Carlson.

RM: Uh, huh, Malcolm Knowles' apostle and now, it's got a great capsulated history of Malcolm Knowles, but it gets into his run-ins with the Boston College crowd and I believe this might have been when you were there. This is to go into the archives, by the way, so any extras…. Now, let me see if I can find it. Okay, page 4, last paragraph and he talked about "the graduate program prospered at Boston College"…

RuV: Where?

RM: Page 4 of 8. The last full paragraph on the page. "His graduate program prospered. Student numbers proliferated. They were supervising an extraordinarily large number of dissertations and theses. However, this did not set well with Boston University academics." And I'd like a little insight on that. Were you involved in some of that politics up there at the time and what brought this about?

JH: Is this part of what you were saying you wanted to follow up on?

RM: Well, this is actually…

JH: This is a precursor to that?

RM: Well, actually it's kind of a follow-on. I just wanted to make sure everybody got this, because this guy really slams him in here pretty good.

JH: Well, let me see if I can set the context to that. What he's talking about is true, okay? I'll give you my perspective of the context and perspective of what's going on. There were two of them, Malcolm and Jean DuBois. Jean, however, was part adult education and part community college education, so basically there were 1-1/2 professors in adult education at Boston University. By the time I got there and was full-scale into the program--I entered the fall of '67--he had started the program in 1961, I think it was. 1961. 62. He'd finished his word at University of Chicago and moved from the Adult Association headquarters to start the program at Boston University. He had two jobs. One was to do the master's and doctoral program in adult education. The other was to be a general consultant to the rest of the university in adult education.

RuV: Specifically, the School of…

JH: Anybody. Anybody and everybody. And probably the most prominent one was to be the evening college or what was called "Metropolitan College." Which is like evening college here. He said that he early on found that his responsibility of having those two jobs was far over and above what he was able and capable of accomplishing and he said: "I made a value choice of choosing to do the graduate student master's and doctor's program"--in contrast to doing the general consultant work because he said: "I had made 3-4 offers to various faculty groups about my being available and willing to help them improve or do whatever they were trying to do in terms of implementing adult education principles and basically"--he said--"I never heard from any of them." And he said: "The silence kind of spoke to me that there was not a whole lot of interest on that side of it. So that part of his job set by the wayside. In 1962, he wrote "A General Theory of the Doctorate in Education" which appeared in the Adult Education Quarterly back in the era and became one of the major foundation pieces of competency adult education as it's known and as I wrote about it in 1991 in an ASTD publication in which I traced the history of 27 different competency studies that have been done. His--that article was probably one of the major foundations. He wrote that also and he build the program at Boston University on that. By 1967-68, the program at Boston University had grown into something like 150 master's degree students and about 300 doctoral students. He was doing all of this himself.

RuV: Impossible.

JH: …which was impossible. And Jean ended up being my dissertation chair, because Malcolm served me as an information source but otherwise, if I'd written on something else, he'd have been my dissertation chair. But there was a constant complaint on the part of various faculty in the School of Education that basically said: "He's got too many students. Why don't some of those students come over into our program?" And there was the crunch of dollar-in/dollar-out, you know, who's generating the money and who isn't generating the money? Because Boston University if a private institution and that takes on a little bit different mentality sometimes than a public institution because the public institution's tax-supported. Not as much as it used to be. But, anyway, there were a lot of complaints that were going on and Malcolm at that particular time didn't have a good system developed, or designed, for assigning grades. He considered grades to be a housekeeping matter of the university and learning to be the major reason why students are there, and there were a lot of complaints about that particular kind of thing. He did develop his learning contract idea that really emerged about in 1975, 74, 75, 73, 74, 75, which is really after I was gone from the program and it became a better tool for working with the issue of grades and the responsibility of the students.

RM: I don't mean to interrupt but he was gone from Boston then.

JH: Yes, he was at North Carolina State at that particular time, retiring from North Carolina State in 1978, '79, somewhere around there. But in any event, after I left--and I was in the midst of writing my dissertation--I did all my work in two years from 1967 to 1969. I moved out of Boston to Detroit and took a job of teaching faculty at the Institute of Advanced Faculty Studies for a year and I was there and moved ahead with doing my dissertation. I knew I had 6 years to finish my doctoral program. Seven years. Seven years to do it. And I had taken two years to do all my classwork, and my proposal, get my dissertation approved, and my comprehensive exams out of the way. So all I really had to do was my dissertation, gather that and write the report. In the midst of that about 1971, in the midst of that, the storm really erupted at Boston University and there were those who misconstrued facts and figures and said when Boston University was faced with bankruptcy there a couple of times, they said: "We've got to get rid of the programs that are costing us money. And some of the folks at Boston University decided that the adult education program was costing Boston University money, so they immediately whipped Boston University's adult education program and said "that's one of the ones that will be eliminated as soon as we can the students out of here that are in the pipeline, the program will be shut down." Well, some of the Board of Curators got wind of that--or the Trustees, or whatever it was--and Malcolm happened to be talking one day with one of them and that seemed to be gathering along the way. Well, by that time, Malcolm had developed sufficient reputation in the Boston area, as well as other parts of the country, that he had feelers from two other schools that wanted to take the program. One was University of Massachusetts-Boston, was developing a Boston campus--Amherst is their mother campus and their home campus--and they were opening up the University of Massachusetts-Boston and said "how about coming over here and we'll give you a home for the program and we'll take it all. He was in the midst of the negotiations for that. And all Harvard University--Hahvahd. That was on the other side of the river, on the other side of the Charles River. (Laughter)

RoV: Right! They take out the r's where there are r's and put them in--just by way of economy--put them in where there aren't any!

JH: Drawring board! Drawring board!

RuV: It's how they learn to pahk the cah.

JH: Hahvahd of all places said: "Come over and we'll house your program. You come over!" And I was in the midst of writing my dissertation. Let me give you some other pieces coming in here. 1972 in Minneapolis, the National Adult Education Conference was being held. Adult Education USA, Adult Education Association USA and the National Association of Adult and Continuing Education holding their conference in Minneapolis and I also was part of, asked to present to the graduate students session up there. Back then, the master's and doctoral students had numerous people who came to the conference and at that conference we had 80 people in the graduate student session and I was asked to present my dissertation at the stage that it was. I agreed to do that and I went up there and told them what my dissertation was. Also, at the Commission of Professors at Minneapolis--Commission of Professors of Adult Education--this was the first one that I knew of in which--this is the first conference I knew of where a program was being shut down--and the Commission of Professors was disturbed about that and grappling about that. Said: "What are we going to do?" Well, on the one hand you've got the Carlson types that said Malcolm should have been burned at the stake or whatever along the way because of some of the wild stuff that he was doing on the one hand; but you also got the academic side of it: "What implications does this have for the future of graduate master's and doctoral programs in adult education if this is happening there with budget crunch?" And that was ostensibly the thing that was going on. "If that happens, how do we respond to that? How do we as adult education professors, how do we as AAUP professors--American Association of University Professors--respond to the institutions where this kind of thing is going on right now--albeit Boston University--and how do we respond to it when it comes in the future?" And I might add in the years since 1972 that I've been in adult education, I would say there have been probably 20 programs--maybe one every year or one every other year--that the Commission of Professors would come and say: "Someone ate my lunch! While I was out to lunch one day, and they moved my desk out and my program is gone!" So it was not an unanticipated thing, but in the midst of all of that--and I guess I'm being overdramatic in some of this stuff--but they were struggling with that. Well, I also had somebody here at the University of Missouri, I had been on the faculty and they said: "Won't that be wonderful if you get to finish your doctoral degree at Harvard University?" I said: "Well, I think the more important thing is that I get to finish it." (Laughter.)

RuV: That was a selfish statement.

JH: But at the graduate students' presentation at the 1972 conference up in Minneapolis, I told them what was going on, and along the way I'd had people say: "Why don't you set a goal that this is when you're going to be done with this dissertation? That really motivated me to get my dissertation done." And it was then that I realized that my internal furniture said: "I've got to do things when I've got to do them and I'll get them finished when I get them finished. And I don't have a whole lot of what I can do and set myself up for, setting a goal and finishing it by a particular time." So I was faced with the fact that here's all this ruckus going on at Boston University and people were saying, "Well, what will you do if that program gets shut down before you get done with your dissertation?" Well, I said--and I said it right to the graduate students there--I said: "I would be disappointed, in all honesty I would have to say I would be disappointed and I would feel it was a sad thing that I wasn't able to finish it, but one of the things I do know is that no one will ever be able to take away from me what I have learned in this process and what I have gained while I have been doing the process and also the insight that has come to me that I know that I had a particular way that I had to do what I'm doing in order for me to do the kind of work that I will do and will finish it in some way that is going to be in accordance with my feeling of satisfaction at the end." Well, that all takes place. The Commission of Professors wrote their thing to Boston University. In the meantime, while all of the inquiries from U Mass-Boston and Harvard University is taking place with Malcolm about possibly bringing the adult education program over there, some one of the Board of Curators got wind and looked at all of the programs that were being eliminated and said: "Well, I have no map" and he called up Malcolm one day and said: "What is going on?" And Malcolm began to tell them. And also in the meantime when he told them what was going on and the various students that were there and all the activities, this guy said: "Well, what is going on is that because--whatever programs are costing the university money will, are the programs that are being eliminated." And this guy on the Board of Trustees said: "Can you do a kind of a quick 5-page thing describing what you told me on the telephone and do a calculation of what the program is costing, and what kind of money is being generated?" And he said: "I guess I could." So he did. He put that paper together and the program in its actual calculation at that point was costing Boston University about, somewhere around $65,000 in salary stuff that they were putting out and when Malcolm calculated all the students--he got this from facts and figures not out of his head but he got all the records as to how many students were enrolled and how many students were in the classes and so forth, I think his calculation was that it generated in a year's time--while it cost Boston University in one year's time $65,000--it was generating about $156,000 in revenue for the University. Well that information was taken and then this board member had heard that Harvard University and {University of Massachusetts-Boston] was interested in the possibility of the program coming over there and when he got those facts and figures he said: "Now just wait a minute! I don't know that we want to let that program go to Boston, I mean, to Harvard University or to University of Massachusetts-Boston. And in the reorganization of the program, I mean of the university, that program, the program had been in the Department of Administration and Supervision with a specialization in adult education--Administration and Supervision in Education--in the School of Education and when it came back it got reorganized into what was then called the Department of Community College and Continuing Education. At that time also, and I wish I still had a copy of Malcolm's paper that he wrote, one of the things that he put in there which, to me was really a nice gem how he described, he said: "You know, I'm really at a crossroads as far as my institutionally-sponsored careers. The fruits of the best years of my life are in the orchard at Boston University." But he said: "I need to go on and find out where I'm going to do or what I'm going to do." And from there, he had been doing some consulting work at North Carolina State and North Carolina State hired him, or asked him to come, after he had done the consultation work and they'd reorganized their program, they asked him to come as kind of the "guru-in-residence." He could teach one course a year and he would be there sort of as the adult education consultant to them. But, you see, he was in the middle of that, trying to find out what he was going to do and decide what he was going to do and they, while he was still there, they reorganized the program, kept it in Boston University and then settled it. And when that was all done and Malcolm was still there, North Carolina State hired him away from Boston University and he went on to finish his institutionally-sponsored career in 1979 at North Carolina State University and had a wonderful time doing that particular thing. But that was all part of what was going on and so what Carlson says here that folks at Boston University, there was a lot of unhappiness going on, was absolutely right but it is the truth, but in legal parlance, it is not the "whole truth"--okay?--not the whole story, or as Paul Harvey says: "Let me tell you at least part of the 'rest of the story.'" In any event, when the program got reconstituted, I finished my dissertation as exhibit my being here and felt like I had done what I needed to do as far as my dissertation was concerned and was delighted that it came out the way it did. But it was certainly not out of too good a ruckus and storm going on. Now you heard more than you anticipated!

RM: Well, that's why…

RoV: Did you get all that?

RM: Yes, we did!

LB: And I was thinking about that. I was just thinking that the article is negative in the background and kind of the "rest of the story" about the situation. It's so incredibly valuable and I'm SO excited about having Dr. Henschke because this is what--potentially could be lost.

RoV: Well, we're also putting it in a written form and on the disk, which by the way, anybody at the end of the program, I'll put all of the transcription on a disk for anybody who brings me a disk."

LB: Because it's so valuable.

RuV: We can even e-mail that to the listserv.

RoV: 150 pages?

LB: [to Dr. Henschke] So thank you. I think that was incredibly valuable.

RM: And that's the stuff I was hoping to get out of this class. Because I read this article and you know to a novice you read that and go: "Geez, he got fired? He had an overactive program and undirected learning and…"

RuV; To an extent, it's typical organization stuff, with due respect to Dr. Knowles, please. But I mean this happens in your organization day-in and day-out. It happens in mind. It is probably a little more prevalent in academic institutions because you have jealousies there that you might--they exist in the commercial world but they're not tolerated as long. In Myers-Briggs terminology, academes have a tendency to be more perceivers than judgers, may I put it that way?

JH: See, he took the approach with the graduate student thing, he took the approach that a lot of the rules are archaic, that they had at universities.

RuV: NO! Now you tell me!

JH: And because of that…

RoV: I'm glad that's no longer the case!

LB: Absolutely not!

RoV: Not here, anyway.

RuV: No wonder I can't get my faculty to move.

JH: And one of the things that he said: "I took the approach in trying to be a change agent in that situation, I took the approach that any little thing that went on that was counter to what my students felt like was important as far as finishing in dealings with the program that was counter to that in the system, I would put in a note and a request that there be an exception for that, that there be a, that that rule not be followed. And he gave a rationale for them. And I really think that was, in part, what stirred up some anger.

RuV: It would have endeared him to a lot of people.

RoV: Right! The principles of management by exception.

JH: But he was simply taking the approach of how can we get the system to let go a little bit and to open up a bit?

RM: Well, if you wouldn't mind continuing on in this. Carlson alludes that he was forced to retire from North Carolina State due to his lengthy absences and his consulting business and so forth. They got tired of having him on there.

JH: Well, I would be interested in really tracing that down. I could ask Ed Boone whether that was the case. Ed is still alive and Ed was the head of North Carolina State's adult education program when they hired Malcolm.

RoV: Well, we'd like to commission you to do that on behalf of the class, because I think that's important.

RM: I do. I think that's important and this is a fairly well-cited article.

JH: Where is it…?

RM: That's on page 7-8 and it's two paragraphs above the heading "The Social Implications in Andragogy."

RoV: By the way, I'd like to know, Rudi pointed this out--I didn't realize this is from the National-Louis University website. My personal alma mater where I first got a course in adult education.

RuV: Also our current faculty affiliation.

JH: Sean Courtney?

RoV: And where I'm also an adjunct and Rudi is, too. Yes! Sean Courtney taught that 2^nd edition which I have of Malcolm's, of his Neglected Species. And that was the first time I'd ever heard anything about there being a difference about how you teach adults and children. That was in a master's program. Actually it was in an HRM&D program--Human Resources Management and Development--which is odd enough already.

RuV: Required.

RoV: It was. The HRD program that I was in, a master's obviously in human resources, they included adult education as a piece of that and Sean Courtney was my instructor. And I think is he now a reviewer on the Adult Education Quarterly? Did I see that somewhere?

JH: He might be still a reviewer. He was at--he was one of the co-editors. And he bowed out of it.

RoV: Okay. This morning in the journal itself, or in the Handbook, I saw an article by him.

JH: I missed part of you, though, your perspective on what Sean had to say about that, or you were saying that was your first exposure.

RoV: Yeah, I was in a human resource program. It was a business program, and yet National-Louis--which was at that time, by the way, called National College of Education--was founded not 113 years ago as a teacher's college and it is probably most well known as a teacher's college. They had an impetus, even though they were just then--this was 1986--they were just then expanding and the St. Louis campus was the first academic center outside of Evanston, Illinois, which is where they're headquartered. So this was a whole new experiment and what they decided to do was include in their HR program an adult ed course. So, in other words, they literally made room through the business courses, and I recall at the time people--of course I enjoyed it because I'm, it was the teacher in me--but the other students in the class there was a big discussion in class, as I recall, they were talking about; "Why are we taking this course? We're not teachers." They didn't understand the important of that and it may or may not have had that much application for them. But I just thought it was foresightful on their part and it explains to me a lot if they have a huge impact, I think, in terms of adult education.

RuV: Well, having taught for about eight years at National-Louis University College of Management and Business, both Knowles, more-so Brookfield, and Kidd are well-known on the management side. Whenever you look at a course outline of a general management course at the undergraduate or at any of our graduate programs, you will find references to Stephen Brookfield--mostly in the critical thinking area to be open about it--but also what's--help me out, was Brookfield one of the first people that started introducing some of the holistic, some of the systems type stuff to adult education, John?

JH: You do know that he founded that.

Ruv: It typically quickly moves from there to Senge and, Peter Senge and, oh, what is the other…Peter Vaill comes later. He's at Georgetown University? I lent you the book Learning as a Way of Being, an excellent book, if you haven't read it. Right now the name escapes me, but basically then they go into the holistic thinking approach and that, of course, is a good basis for thinking of management of an organization.

JH: I don't get, unless I misunderstand Brookfield, I never associated him with systems thinking or running an organization or holistic kinds of things. He's, being an Englishman, very much into critical thinking, critical analysis perspective. Yes

RuV: Um, hmm. And he's very good at it. Very good.

JH: Well, let's think for a minute. Let me respond for a minute. I think I may read this differently than you do.

RoV: What page?

JH: We're talking about page 7 of 8. Fifth full paragraph. "His embrace of andragogy not only stirrred controversy for Knowles nationally and internationally, it also brought him under criticism at his home base in Raleigh, as it had at Boston University." --which is not surprising at all, because if he used the approach of asking for exceptions all the time…

RuV: That's annoying.

JH: …that's annoying. "Why don't you get away from here and just get out of my hair?" "The criticism was partly due to andragogy's challenge to traditional university ideology." Yes. "There was also concern expressed over his lengthy absences from the capacity on lucrative speaking junkets on behalf of andragogy." Probably so. "Knowles, for his part, believed…" --and I would be interested in where the citing of, did he have a conversation with Malcolm that said--"Knowles…believed that North Carolina State had hired him for his reputation and national visibility." Probably it had. I got that impression from Ed Boone when Ed Boone provided some information for my dissertation and said and gave me the documents as to the influence of Malcolm on their program and how he in his consultation prior to his hiring was influential in helping to shape their program. And I certainly would think Carlson's description of that is accurate, probably accurate, as to what Knowles says. I’m concerned that he doesn't cite. "Nonetheless, when Malcolm reached the university's standard retirement age of 65, no ground swell developed to retain him and he was required to retire." That doesn't mean he was fired. That does not mean he was fired. You know, we used to have a rule here when I started at the university 29-1/2 years ago that the age for retirement requirement was 65. My wife and I used to talk: "We've got this and this and this to do and at 65 I'll retire and tada, tada, tada." The day came when they lifted the retirement age to 70.

RuV: And it's going to be lifted again.

JH: No, it's already lifted. There is no requirement. There is no age requirement now.

KS: He just fell into a time when it was 65.

JH: He fell into a time when it was 65. There was never in the university that I was aware of in all the extension faculty and all the campus faculty, there was never a ground swell of saying: "This guy did a wonderful job here. I think we ought to keep him. You just eliminate that rule." There wasn't any question asked about it. When 65 came, you retired and when 70 came, you retired--when the 70 thing was there. And I heard when 70 was lifted and there isn't any requirement now--I can stay here until they carry me out of here--but I'm not gonna do like one guy did. He made a statement to me: "They'll carry me out of here!" And they DID! Tragically. I mean that sadly. Which is what I'm planning that they're not going to carry me out of here.

LB: We're planning that too!

JH: But what I'm saying is that standard procedure at a university is that when that requirement age of 65 came to retire, he was gone. There wasn't any ground swell for ANYbody.

JY: Remember on that first page he said "through mandatory retirement," so it was mandatory that he retire.

RM: Yes, but that's the way this Carlson, the way he writes this it leads you to believe he was fired.

KS: He been manipulated, that's all.

RM: You can see that.

JY: This guy is really like you said dogging him out because even he called his speaking engagements, he called them "junkets."

RM: Look at his last paragraph.

LB: Knowles had influence for good or for ill.

JY: Right. I know it. The it's just bias is all through this article.

RuV: When any of us only supports Knowles there is no bias there, right?

LB: Of course not!

JY: No, I'm not saying that. But we asking you to be fair about it because Knowles did make a contribution too.

RM: I think this article should be in the archives. I wanted some more light and you have provided me with a lot of insight. In the sequel that I read, this was quoted quite a bit, this piece.

RoV: Well, we'll just flame off an e-mail to the man and make him come in here and defend his article.

RuV: I think the article defends itself.

JH: Well, it's not as if Malcolm and us students who loved whatever his teaching was that we've got an agreement all the time. One time he was in the midst of a controversy with the folks at the human relations center and there was one guy in there that was an excellent professor but there was a rub going on between Malcolm and the human relations center. And some of us students decided we were going to get together and we were going to try to figure out how to help Malcolm deal with this controversy. And so we got out thing together and presented it to him and told him how we were going to help him. And he just sort of laughed…

RM: How did he handle it?

JH: …he just kind of "Wake up!" What?

RM: How did he handle criticism such as this? Was he…? He didn't take it personally, did he?

JH: Well, I think it was… He did what? I missed that.

RoV: Hey! I just made a thousand dollars a show, I mean….!

LB: A thousand dollars a day!

RuV; And that is when the dollar had value. Multiply that by 3-1/2 times…

JH: Well, probably for one he cried all the way to the bank!

RM: Malcolm had the last laugh!

JH: I think there were two things. Malcolm enjoyed controversy. He thrived on it. When we would get together at the Commission of Professors meetings, you could always depend upon Cy Houle telling the group that he always chided Malcolm Knowles he said there was no difference between how adults learn and how children learn and Malcolm would be sitting there just listening very intently to what Cy had said and when he got done and everybody would laugh and Malcolm would laugh with them. So he had a real sense of humor from that side of it. And he always had an approach that he used what we call an "ulcer saver." You know the curve of normal distribution? He used that as an ulcer saver. He says: "When people didn't like something, I'd always look 'well, how many people are there that tell you this is the best thing since sliced bread and, on the other hand, this is the worst thing that could have ever happened in the whole wide world throughout all ages that had ever been recorded.'" So you've got those two ends. But he says: "When I watch to see what kind of middle range there was, I always used that as a balancer for myself." But even his wife told me one time. She says: "You know, when things don't go well in Malcolm's classes, he comes home and he's sad or he's disappointed and he kind of broods over it. Doesn't-- He goes into himself and he says: "What happened? What did I do wrong? Where do I improve this?" And she said: "He always would come home and talk about that stuff." And she said: "When the good things happened, he always came and shared with me." And to me that was their life together. When I did the professional eulogy at the memorial service for him in 1997, afterward I said--Hulda, you had 62 wonderful years with him. And she says: "But it wasn't enough." And that's the kind of relationship that they had. But he had his lighter side but he also had his serious side in which he was always working on how can I make this better? How can I do a better job than I'm doing? So…

RoV: I would venture to say also that from a purely philosophical standpoint, the controversy that swirled around him and all this introspection that had to be done at the universities and so on, probably actually promoted the whole notion and the field itself. It probably did more to build than tear down what he was trying to accomplish. My guess is that if it hadn't been that "hey, why are we doing this adult ed thing, what's the deal?"--if they hadn't had that introspection at Boston University, it probably would have languished on the vine.

JH: His connecting andragogy with his own conceptions rather than it being as historically rooted as what we hope to do some adding to here now and also its connection with self-directed learning. That whole mix has generated more research, more studies, more controversy in the field of adult education than any other concept in the history of adult education in this country in the last 75-100 years.

RuV: I'm sorry, I missed it. What was that? What caused more…

JH: His conception of andragogy and putting his own meanings to it and not connecting it very much to the historical roots that we're trying to add to right now. And andragogy in the later part where he talks about its--his change between the 70 edition and the 80 edition--where it becomes closely identified with self-directed learning and becomes part of that whole mixture. And that--andragogy and its connection with self-directed learning--has generated more research, more studies and more controversy in our field than any other concept.

RuV: Well, in your dissertation you refer to him as a field-builder. I don't know--I presume that is probably a term somebody threw at him somewhere along the line you picked up. He may have started using it later on himself although I wouldn't be surprised if he never used it.

JH: But he's the one that gave that gift to me. He--I said: "How do you perceive yourself in adult education?" He said: "I perceive myself as a field-builder. Building on the field. That's my commitment."

RuV: And I think at least in this country and what I'm beginning to see also--probably heavily in England I'm sure we'll discover in other countries--that the whole Nottingham Group stuff as I understand it started as a reaction to Malcolm Knowles. I mean he clearly had the habits of what one would call a "field-builder" and so if he brought up the term himself, I think the man was pretty well-grounded, he knew himself pretty well and he may have even brought it up to the cognitive level of saying: "This is what I've decided to do with my life." He is admirable.

JH: He saw himself as a pioneer.

RuV: He acted like one probably.

JH: His dad did pioneering up in Montana, pioneering in the veterinary area. He saw himself doing that in the field of adult education. The New York Times when they talked about his death talked about his being a pioneer and in 1996 when I took to him his citation on being inducted into the International Adult and Continuing Education Hall of Fame, I said: "Malcolm, as President of the American Association for Adult and Continuing Education from your perspective, what do you think we ought to be doing?" He says: "Be pioneers. Be as pioneering as you can in the field." He said: "We've come a long way but we've got a long way to go and the glory days for adult education are ahead. Build and go out into the wilderness and do good adult education." Shall we take a lunch break?

RM: And I'll take up where we were the last time. I want to ask you something.

LB: And I also have a thing for controversy after lunch. I have a little proposal here based on the article that I read to change the name of this course from "Dialogues in Andragogy" to "Dialogues in Adult Education" because of the different names for "andragogy." It's a reaction to the article that I read.

JH: Well, we'll hear that and you remember your question.

RuV: And I will safely sit on the fence with feet on both sides of that question based on my article.

LB: There you go!

RoV: …and side with the winner!

JH: All right, we are ready to move forward and I think Roger had a question he was ready to follow up with.

RM: Well, it is a question and I want your view on it. You know how when people get to be such a name in a field such as Malcolm Knowles, how has his death affected the whole field of adult ed? Has there been some movement that you've noticed in the last three years or anything as a result of his death. More awareness or more attacks on him, or anything?

JH: I'm seeing more attacks on him. I don't know that there's a whole lot of awareness other than what's been present and what's been in the literature up until the present time. However, his death really is part of the launching of at least how the Commission of Professors of Adult Education will follow up on his legacy and we have the "Dialogues in Andragogy" as one piece of it. There are probably half a dozen others among which there will be a book that will be published sometime in the future that the committee with the Commission of Professors are working on. There is a Malcolm Knowles award, well, the dissertation award, the Malcolm Knowles Dissertation Award was renamed for him with the Academy of Human Resources Development. They have a yearly dissertation award which they didn't call--they called it the "Dissertation Award" and now they have named it "Malcolm Knowles Dissertation Award" and presumably they will keep it that way in the years to come. There is a character, some kind of character award, that is being initiated with the Commission of Professors that will be given on a yearly basis. That's still in the process of taking shape. It was approved at our national meeting in San Antonio in October. Marcie Boucouvalas, who hopefully will get on the telephone with us sometime during our time together, is sort of heading up that and I wish you would raise that question with her when she gets on the phone with us. I think I can--I know that it will be carried forward and will be awarded to someone. But I think it is something like being a character award because he…

RuV: Are you saying Malcolm was a character?

RoV: Yeah, that's what I'd like to know. Is it like because you get--or because you HAVE character or because you ARE one? -------Yes!

RuV: One is a prerequisite of the other…

RoV: Or we can say what? It depends.

JH: When you don't have something fully developed, that's the thing that happens.

RoV: I want to see the prerequisites. I'd like to apply.

RuV: John, what has been done with other individuals of Dr. Knowles' stature is that there will be a group of people who create a regular symposium where academic presentations are done on the topic of the individual's interest. Is that one of the things that is being considered?

JH: For other people, you mean?

RuV: For Malcolm. A "Malcolm Knowles Andragogy Symposium."

RoV: Like a colluquy?

RuV: Fine.

JH: There might have been some thought regarding that but I don't know that that has gone anywhere at this particular point.

RuV: Typically requires pretty good funding for that.

MaC: We talked to Malcolm Knowles' daughter, remember, at AHRD?

JH: I think it's still an open thing and a number of things can be developed in years to come.

RM: How old was he when he passed?

JH: 84.

RM: Was he pretty active up till the end?

JH: Probably--what?--except probably--well, one of the last national conferences that he was involved with that I was aware of probably was around '72--uh, '92, something like that. He taught at University of Arkansas up until '95. Of course, that was right next to his home, and he worked on dissertations there. He got to a point where he simply said: "My full time job is to take care of Hulda." She was sort of semi-invalid and he just said in 1991 when he came here in St. Louis for the National Community Education Conference, he said that and he says: "I'm seldom gone over night. Once in awhile I will be but most of the time I'm not." And he stuck pretty close to home after that. 1994 we had our Nashville Conference, no, not '94, was it? Now my timing is a little bit in question. It was San Antonio and Phoenix and Cincinnati and Charlotte. That's right. 1994. National Conference. We had a kind of a fund-raiser for him in the award ceremonies and funded out of that. But he wasn't able to come because--not because he was not going to come--he was going to come to that, but he couldn't come because of the weather. If you know anything about getting in and out of Fayetteville, Arkansas, that terrible mountain cliff that they have there is treacherous when bad weather comes and they just won't let especially the small planes get in and out of there. And so he was not able to come to Nashville because of the bad weather but we hooked up with him by telephone. In fact, I have a recording of that which is going into the archives. But that was a fund-raiser for Malcolm Knowles award in andragogical programming in adult education. And so he was active up until that. The last thing that I'm aware of that he published was--one of the last things--was in 1995 or '96 when all of the syllabi from his past work, ASTD published that. And of course some of the folks got permission for republishing and updating his Adult Learner and did so in 1999. I'm--I feel like they did not do a good job of it although they added some things that were their own perspectives. We'll see whether or not that will survive, but that was his best seller, The Adult Learner, The Neglected Species. First edition was in '73, second edition '78, third edition '84, and fourth edition '90, and in '96--no, '95 or 6--was the paperback version of the fourth edition and then in '99 was the new one done by Ed Holt and Dick Swanson and preserved some of Malcolm's stuff in there but not nearly all of it, or a sufficient amount that would do justice in reflecting what his andragogy concepts. But it reflects their perception on the shape of andragogy in the future.

RM: Thank you.

JH: Were you going to pick up with an article, a follow-up? I think you said Dan Pratt?

RM: Dan Pratt. He's published a book--written another book.

JH: Well, in fact, I believe he was given the Cy Houle Award for Literature in Adult Education at our national conference in San Antonio. Dan Pratt.

MaC: Um hmm.

RM: Okay.

JH: You're really meaning for this to be a follow-up to Mary's…

RM: Well, yes. He's still around. As I said he just wrote a book. He's got an e-mail address at the University of British Columbia and I intend to correspond with him after we've had a little discussion group, so I don't know if he'll talk to us or not. One of the things we're supposed to look at, and as you can see this has a bibliography. However, if you look here on page 164, you'll see some notes there that Dr. Henschke had already pencilled in.

RoV: "This is an excuse!"

RM: Well, the circle, the Holmes 1980 was omitted from the bibliography here. However, we have tracked that down and unfortunately Susan had that article but she's not here today. For some reason it was omitted from the bibliography but we have it. That's the article that they're referring to here and there's another problem on page 164 also where that first sentence there after…"A Basis for a Comparison Between Andragogy and Pedagogy" it says--he's alluding to a recent debate there and that's not cited--what debate was he talking about there? Dr. Pratt has said that: "This paper will suggest that andragogical practice should acknolwedge and accept of its learners both self-directness and its averse dependency." So this is the basis for his argument here that not all learners are self-directed and this is--adult learners--and this is exactly what you said earlier here. And this is where I think it ties on to yours because I think he has one good point in this whole article--one strength in this whole article.

MaC: What is the one good point?

RM: Well, okay, now this is from me. Let me go on here just a minute. That quote I just talked about is on page 161 there so-- Now he does point out here on page 160 that there is some literature that suggests that andragogy and pedagogy cannot even be viewed on a continuum because adults are SO different and maybe that's--that's on page 160 here.

RuV: Well, that's from the Nottingham Group. That's not Knowles.

RM: That's exactly right. Nottingham. And then another thing he does here is on page 160 in the second paragraph--third paragraph--he tries to explain Knowles' andragogy in very simplistic terms and I don't think that's doing it justice. He just glosses it over real quick. What he does say is he can, Pratt says you have to have two presuppositions or assumptions. Adults want to be self-directed in their learning and adults should be taught through collaborative methods. He says those are two presuppositions or assumptions of andragogy. He says you gotta carry that a little bit farther. You have to look at three interacting sets of variables. This is where I think he brings up the strongest case. Variable one is called "situational variables."

RuV: Put us on the page, please.

RM: 162. Okay? And talking about the situational variables, or things such as time, cost, audience size and recertification requirements. And refers to Shores who is discussing a nursing program and that "…faced with these variables many adults would prefer a set curriculum and established ways of delivering content and evaluating progress." And he's talking about a nursing program in this example. Now, this is where I think the strongest point is. And this is where I want everybody involved here--and the nurse is gone now but--

RuV: Well, there are a few there, or at least health care.

RM: In our field, for example, when we train, we have to train to set standards. In other words, some licensing agency has said: "This is what you have to do." Now, I think he's got a point here. How can you be self-directed if you have to teach to a certain level? Some adults don't want to be self-directed. Here's the requirements. Teach it. Am I wrong here, or--?

RuV: Well, I think you're setting it up as a dichotomy when that is not necessary. And I'm in this argument all the time because that's the situation that I'm in. The easy route--first of all, I think there is a professional arrogance at work. Forgive my language, but I really mean that.

JH: Professional arrogance at work where?

RuV: When we get to the point of saying that teaching to standard--teaching so that the learner achieves certain minimum standards I find frequently in professional environments, including continuing education environments there, and I find frequently that because the teacher, the trainer doesn't have an education background but has that professions background--

RoV: Practitioner.

RuV: Practitioner, fine. --that the attitude is: "I had to learn it this way; therefore, you must learn it that way."

RM: Yeah, he talks about that.

RuV: And that then leads to teacher-directed or teacher-centered approaches. I don't think it's necessarily so.

RM: Well, now here's where--for example. A nursing program. You have to meet certain requirements, right? Now, it would be very difficult for an adult--a teacher to sit there and say: "Well, why don't you tell me what you want to learn out of this and then let's develop a contract." I think that's a very difficult thing to do when you're faced with--when you have to pass some type of exam.

LB: But I think that the--but that's also something to say you start all self-directed type of learning with: "What do you want to learn?" I think that you don't necessarily have to start that way. You can have a set of standards, a set of topics that have to be accomplished in a semester and still involve the learner in: "How are we going to best learn some of these concepts? These are the things we have to answer--you have to know how to--take blood. You have to know how to operate this machine. Okay? That's still involving…

RuV: You have to be proficient at these set of skills at these standard levels.

LB: Right. That still involves you in how we're going to get there.

RM: Now for it to meet standardization, can we do that? Can we implement adult learning principles in a life and death type of learning?

LB: Yes!

RuV: Sure! You do it all the time, Roger. When you're in the cockpit, you're learning right there on the spot and there is nobody telling you how to learn. You're in control. So can we do it? Yes! You're doing it all the time. See, the distinction that I hear you making--and maybe this is a bias that I have--I think adult learning--I'll use it synonymously with "self-directed learning" for a moment--is truly that. I'm in charge. Whether or not for a moment I'm willing to submit my authority as the learner to a set of rules that somebody else would like to propose the me is a choice that I make. But in real life, in my daily work, in my daily recreation, I'm in charge of what's I'm learning and I think you are probably the best example in this room that that's going on. I mean, our discussion before class this morning about the jack screws on a DC-9. You have an understanding about that that probably most of us here don't. Okay? You can involve to a very large extent the learner.

JH: Let me talk for a minute about the meaning of "self-directness"--what it means, what it doesn't mean. Okay? I think we've got two elements in learning. One has to do with content, and the other has to do with process. I think when you're talking about standards of--objective standards or whatever you want to call it that need certain requirements--if I understand correctly, we're talking about content. You have to know this and to be able to do this. We're talking about self-directedness. We're talking about process. The process of how the content is acquired. Okay? And I think that's one aspect of it. The other aspect of self-directedness is what seems to--we get blinded a little bit--with, I think, with the terminology. Self-directedness has a tendency sometimes to mean to us: "Well, I'll just go and do whatever you want to do. Or do your own thing?" Okay? What is it you want to learn? So I think maybe more to the point is what do you need to learn? I may not want to learn whatever all these things are on the standards, but maybe I need to. Okay?

RM: Especially in a certification atmosphere. You have to know this stuff and you've got to perform.

JH: Okay. But self-directedness does not say: "You only have to learn what you want to learn." It doesn't say, even--in process or the content--. I, as a facilitator of self-directed learning or a worker in self-directed learning, never give up my responsibility. After all, this isn't a course in basket-weaving. This is a course that has been described by whatever the catalog description is and if I have any responsibility to you or to anybody else, it is to make sure that what is in that catalog description is fulfilled. Okay?

RuV: Actually, that's a legal requirement.

JH: It's a legal requirement because you can take me to a court of law and if I haven't fulfilled that, then I can be put under indictment or convicted. That kind of thing, if you want to put it in those particular terms. But what I'm saying is that self-directed learning has with it a component in the process. In fact, when Tough outlines the 13 steps in self-planned learning, there were two steps in there in which it required contacting outside resource persons, or outside resource materials, which I would assume will carry some authority with it or would--legitimization that what that authority had on it, albeit the certification that has been determined, that in fact that has to be met. That needs to be met within the structure of the person who, in fact, may be self-directed--and with the person that isn't self-directed. We want to eliminate those. We want to say there are some that are and some that aren't. And I think there--in the Girl Scouts program when the early research was done and Malcolm's approach was done, he kind of made the assumption that most people were self-directed and one of the doctoral students did a study later which the study appeared in the ASTD Journal, Barbara Stone, who was a Texas A&M when she retired a few years ago, said that when they really did a study on Girl Scout leaders, they found that some of them were self-directed and some of them were not according to a particular measure that they used. I'm not certain about the measure that was used. It was some kind of learning styles inventory or teaching styles inventory. And she went back to Malcolm and said: "You know, that's probably where your Girl Scout program did not gel as well as it might have" and he said: "Barbara, I think you're right." Okay? So the issue is not that self-directedness says that everybody can do their own thing and they only have to do whatever they want to do. Self-directedness is a process that includes looking to other resources. If I don't know everything there is to know about this, then the real question then either needs to be leveled or I level it at somebody else "Who are you going to contact?" You know, something about mechanisms of an airplane, I'm not going to ask you to go to a banker, even though they finance those things, because they don't know anything about them-- what's required. And that mechanic is the authority. They know.

RuV: May I add a level to--I like your description. You've done it a number of times and I keep forgetting the terminology. Process, content. And that I think one of the things that you and I struggle with with these outside accrediting or certifying approaches is another level where the self-directedness comes in. I may choose to quit being a nurse because I don't like this part. I really can't learn it. I don't want to learn it. It doesn't interest me. I have the right to change. Self-directedness does come into play at that level, as well, I think.

RM: Well, what I think we've come up with here is that we need to define "self-directedness"--as a field, as a discipline.

RuV: Didn't Elaine look at that?

JH: Yes. I think we could dig out a couple of--

RuV: Would that we worthwhile, digging it out?

RM: After you've laid it out here, we've had this discussion, this article starts to make sense. However, Rudi brings up another good point. Sometimes you're faced with a certifiying agency that says: "It will be taught this way." And then, now how can I implement the principles…

JH: You probably can't.

RuV: Either that, or that's when you become a Malcolm Knowles, pester them with exceptions to the rule requests.

KS: And then you get fired.

RuV: And you may get fired for doing that, but you have a decision to make.

MaC: But there are ways to get around that.

RM: Well, now, let me also throw a couple of things in here just a second. This has to do with training, okay? And that's the situational variables: time. You know when we bring somebody in to train them, it has to be done in X amount of time. It's budgeted for that. Cost. Audience size. You know, Rudi alluded to that in our first meeting. You know, can we do it with a class of 300?

RuV: Where are you picked those up?

RM: First paragraph. I honestly, of the whole article this was his strongest argument that maybe you just can't apply andragogy at all times. It gives you something to think about.

KS: Why would anybody assume that? That you can apply ANY philosophy or anything to every situation?

RoV: There you go. All the time…

RM: And that's what Pratt's arguing.

LB: And well, that quote this morning talked about how he used the different assumptions side-by-side and sometimes the more traditional pedagogical approach might be appropriate and other times, other approaches might be appropriate. They're all tools in the arsenal.

RM: That's why I wanted to tag on to Mary, because in hers they said they were two separate things and Pratt's saying, sometimes you have to…

RoV: It's like that thing I handed out this morning. Is it a dichotomy, or is it a continuum?

RuB: Bingo.

LB: Well, okay, but I think a continuum assumes that there's--I don't think he's talking about a continuum, that there's a progression or something. I'm not sure it's…

RuV: A sliding scale.

LB: A sliding scale. Okay, they go back and forth. But they're all--. Maybe it's neither. Maybe the best tools and approaches and model to be used in facilitating discussion….

RoV: But continuum in this case doesn't mean you go from the bad to the good. It means--or from the child to the adult--that's not what we're saying. We're saying--the continuum is saying that the methodology used in pedagogy is that different at this extreme and andragogy at this extreme and somewhere at any point along the scale--and you may combine things or all kinds of things…

RuV: And if we accept the concept, then you get to the question of how do I decide who I am--assuming I'm the teacher, the faculty member, the trainer, the facilitator--who I am and that's where you start, you may want to start looking at concepts like situational leadership being put out by Hersey and Blanchard, Mary's Jerry Grow concept of--do you remember what he called it? Student's --SSD is what it was. I need to dig up that article and give it to you, Roger. I will try to do that.

RoV: Mary's been trying to say something for about half an hour.

RuV: That's unusual for her. Doesn't take her that long.

MaC: Well, since I'm just sort of an observer... I came from health care. The first place I read the word "andragogy"--or saw it and then I asked to have it pronounced for me--and the first place I heard about somebody named Malcolm Knowles was in nursing education in a major hospital. Now, granted maybe in nursing school when you're at a basic level it might be different but the way I saw nursing education happening was--it was a question of degree. And if you go by the continuum, it was all of it because when you're being recertified, I ran a learning lab. But then you go off on your own and do stuff. When we did CPR certification, they taught us, we went off and we partnered up and practiced on our own however we wanted to do it and, as long as we could pass the test at the end, you know--but we could use our own learning methods and this is how it was in almost all of the learning experiences.

LB: But this is a little different because I don't even really think of a CPR class--I didn't even think of a CPR class as a set of…

MaC: And I could still bang on that baby dummy.

LB: Yeah. But that's a very interesting example…

MaC: See, it was my way of learning I could put in there in the middle. Yeah, there was a prescribed curriculum. There was a prescribed test. But everything in the middle was up to me.

Ruv:: Roger, in just a quick look here. It looks like they're going into the situational leadership direction in this article. Are they?

RM: I don't know that much about situational leadership.

MaC: Theirs is a little--it's a little different in this one. It doesn't match the Grow.

RM: It's almost…

JH: Hersey and Blanchard model is what this is.

MaC: Yeah, but the way Grow does it is it makes a different…

RuV: It looks like an adaptation of it because there are--but that's fine. The concepts are there.

MaC: It's--two lines are different.

JH: I understand that you're saying though, that certain points may be they don't give you the latitude that Mary's talking about.

RM: Not in our business. There's NO latitude…

JH: No, but I mean they're saying: "It has to--this is the content that has to be taught and it has to be taught in this way."

RM: Exactly. That's what they--that's what we're dictated.

MaC: But even when I had that in "medical terminology," I--my thought processes were still my own. And I didn't necessarily do 1-2-3. I might have done 1-6-8, then 2.

JH: You're saying you're dictated by the certifying board or by the--by the who?

RM: Federal Aviation Administration. FAA. I mean, this is what needs to be taught. Here's the content. Here's how you'll teach it. Here's where you'll teach it. It'll take this long. So in this case I'm really having a struggle with that.

JH: Are you saying that that works?

RM: Well, that's what I'm--that's why I--

RuV: Roger, I think what you're trying to do, I think part of your struggle now that I'm hearing where you're coming from is, yes, there are organizations--sometimes certifying organizations, in my field, accrediting organizations, in my field, state licensing boards--that will dictate: "You will teach this content, you will teach it in this manner for so long and the end result will be blah, blah." The problem is that they are looking at the teaching side of the coin, and we are discussing the learning side of the coin. Okay? And so, do you have a choice when you're in your organizational mode of I have to follow these rules and regulations or we quit flying TWA? No, you don't have a choice, so you do what you do. That doesn't mean that you cannot take some time with the participants, with the learners, and say: "Look, we have no choice. We may realize that this is a structure that doesn't help you learn. Let's do some investigating. Let's do some supporting. Let's do some helping you discover how you can learn this stuff once this program is over. How you can get it so you internalize it, it becomes part of your daily lives in the cockpit, in the cabin, on the tarmac, whatever…" Okay? I think maybe if we look as that point that we can flip it so it can help you.

MaC. And to build on what Rudi said, even when it's really prescribed, if you can instill in them a motivation to continue beyond the structured learning environment, I mean, then you are helping them be self-directed.

RM: Well, see what the problem with our procedure is, at least with us is, we have these highly trained professional adults who are using pedagogical techniques.

RoV: Um hmm. Practitioners.

RM: In some cases, it works fine. In some cases, it's absolute disaster and if we can figure out some way to reach these people that are failing, I think using some of these adult techniques we're going to have a whole lot better success rate and maybe learn it as a lifelong learning concept.

RuV: Forgive the terminology but many--my suspicion is that good regulatory agencies like you're dealing with will sometimes allow for small-group pilot projects with different approaches. Maybe that's something that you want to look at. Maybe you want to take a leaf out of Malcolm Knowles' toolbox and start asking for the exception. I mean, you and I both know the FAA is constantly looking at it and they are looking for ways to improve. Do they move as fast as you and I want? Never have. Never will.

RM: But one of the things that they have done which is right out of this in our recurrent type training, they used to just go in there, do all these maneuvers that you NEVER do in the real world--I mean, you NEVER go out there and stall the airplane--

MaC: Somebody stalled my 747…

RuV: That's not true. Every test flight I've ever taken, I've stalled it.

RM: It was just stupid. And then you get graded on that. And then you just go out and just fly around like normal. So what they've done is they've developed what's called a "loft line oriented flight training scenario" which is they--it's a canned flight you do it in the simulator and you have problems just like you're on a real flight and the criteria is a successful landing where you didn't bend any tin.

RuV: That would help!

LB: That would be good! We like that.

RM: And what you do is you walk into the room--and this is where the adult learning is--the instructor is a facilitator and you have them critique their flight. What did you learn from this, and so forth? And this has been phenomenally successful, I mean, phenomenally successful.

LB: That's a great example. A thought that's been just running through my mind for the past few minutes is to take a question about the instructors in this very prescribed situation. If I'm the instructor, the trainer, of this very regimented program, what are my assumptions of the learner? You know, am I walking in assuming that they all need to be imparted the knowledge to? And I think you can get even at some self-directed processes in a very prescribed program by just looking at what the instructors do. And I did read some article or someone that talked about the perception--God, who wrote that?--the perceptions of the instructors as far as self-directedness in the learners. And I'm not forgetting who wrote that. Well, but I think that might be even the first thing to look at, even before you look at the learners and their self-directedness and not self-directedness because if the instructors, or trainers, facilitators, aren't buying this concept, I don't think they'll…

RoV: Part of the reason I think, though, that we're talking about self-directedness as an aspect of learning, period, or of teaching and learning as the case may be, is because we're all unique. We all do that process differently. It's not a prescribed thing necessarily for all of us. We can't diagnose it entirely the same for each of us. We're all very unique because we're all brain dominant unique. Our--my brain is wired differently than yours and part of that is genetic and part of that is my life experience, so what I bring as a learner to that situation--or any situation, in this room, for instance--is my own set of values, assumptions, needs, all of those things that make up how my brain is wired. My past experiences impact me because I take what I'm hearing and I hook it into something that's already there. The problem being that what's there for me is different from what's there for Mary. And that's not a problem unless we're saying: "You're all alike. Cookie cutter. Everybody gets stamped out in the same way. And that's where a lot of those people that you're talking about who are failing don't learn the way they're being taught. That's why they're failing. Not because the material is too hard for them. I was reading something yesterday that is SO fascinating, it's like so obvious. Duh! The brain wants to learn. We treat the brain as if learning is something difficult that we'd rather not do. No, it learns--give me more, it's like, it's like the little robot: "Input! I want input!" You know. I mean if I don't get input I get frustrated. You can get too much at once, I grant you, but--and we may be there, I don't know, but the idea is that we all learn differently and we all teach differently. And I teach differently from you in part because that's how I learned to teach, or because that's what's comfortable for me, or because I teach the way I learned--that, etc. Which is why my interest in brain-based learning. And the whole notion of how we can optimize that. The only way to optimize it for everyone concerned--everyone in the room because we're all so different--is to provide many, many, many ways of learning, and that's part of the self-directedness for me. I choose to learn this material the way it's interesting to me. Guess what? I'd rather do a timeline than read all these articles and spend time in the library the way it's designed. So I'm probably--I get more from transcribing the stuff and absorbing the information that way than I would by sitting in a library. That's not how I learn. It's not my methodology, so I can learn so differently and if Dr. Henschke is willing to allow us each to take our own path, as long as we all get what we need from the content. Now, I know this is not life and death, although John thinks it is--I don't know--maybe it is…

RuV: It may be for the field, who knows?

RoV: Who knows? We may be breaking new ground but I think that for each of us the part of self-directedness that I think is important is what John said--is the process that we use to acquire the information, or to impart information and then to absorb it, to pattern it in some way that makes it memorable so that I can recall it and apply it because that's the whole point of learning, isn't it?

RM: Well, we try--when we have problems, we try to identify you might say training problems, and we will sit down on a one-to-one basis and talk with the person. But we're back to this situational variable. Does that cost a huge amount of money?

RuV: Yeah.

RM: So now I'm taking an instructor and I'm putting him with one person. And we try to match because we know our instructors pretty well, we know who can fix this problem…

RoV: But I'll bet you that if you took your instructors and sent them through a whole-brained approach to teaching and learning or something similar, not counting my thing, but if they understood some of these basic concepts, they can improve their own instruction so that you wouldn't have to have so many of these one-on-one mentoring sessions and it would be a lot less expensive and probably a lot--not only a lot more economical but a lot more pleasurable for everybody concerned if there were those kinds of options available. If you could sell people on the idea to begin with.

RM: I agree with everything everybody says and I'm--just a lot of good information. Back to this article, what this thing, what he points out here are some extremely, in my opinion, it's the strong point of this article. He says there are variables that you do have.

JH: Yeah, and I think that in part probably Malcolm didn't cover that as articulately as what needs to be covered. I think the situational variables. I agree with that, but let me pick up on one line of thinking with Pratt that I had problems with. And that's--let's take under the "teacher variables" on page 164…

RM: Teacher variables. I'm with you.

RoV: We already know what he's going to say!

RM: I know what he's going to say. He wrote it in here.

JH: Wrote it in here, okay? "Most teachers are taught in systems that place the teacher in the central position of dominance and power with almost exclusive authority over the responsibility for making decisions regarding the conduct." Okay?

RuV: Isn't that a sad commentary if it is a correct statement?

JH: Well, and I think it's correct. It's sad commentary. And he says: "They may have little experience or training that would effectively prepare them to share that authority."

RM: To share the authority. That's not…

JH: "Indeed, they may even see it as inappropriate to be expected to do so."

RoV: The lazy ones.

RuV: No, the ones who are trained you don't do that.

JH: But, but, then basically that becomes part of the foundation…

RuV: Bingo!

JH: …the foundation for why we shouldn't move forward with andragogy.

RM: Yeah. I want to carry on. You underlined it on the next page, 165. He almost contradicts himself. "Direction and support are keys to a teacher's…"

JH: Don't do what I do. Do what I say. Okay?

RM: This was after…

RuV: I have a better solution to this problem. Let's throw out all existing schools of education and turn them all into schools of adult learning.

JH: That won't happen.

RuV: I know! But then we can be done with this kind of nonsense.

MaC: We just keep dripping away and wearing off the rocks.

JH: We just keep whittling away at it. You know, the fact is that that's where my problem was. I mean, I agreed with him on a lot of things he was saying but when he got into that--"I just don't think it's appropriate that I have to be required to do thus and so and thus and so"--isn't there any standard? Or should there be any standard? Or what is the standard, for that matter?

RuV: He sets up his own problem, by the way, on the first page. One. Two. Three. In the first sentence of the fourth paragraph, he tells us that he's going to write, he's going to focus on learner control. Read the following semi-sentence, which is the central import to this paper. Okay? So where he's…

MaC: Page 160. Bottom paragraph on the first page.

RuV: So we know right now that he is setting us up. The moment we read that sentence he is setting us up for trying to knock down a whole bunch of issues that we're probably in the process of discussing, of developing, that may not be fully formed yet. This is what, 1988? So 12 years ago. We put it in the history development of adult education, andragogy, and this is not long after the Nottingham Group reacted to Knowles' original rigidity of andragogy vs. pedagogy and then assisted--I presume they assisted--in helping Knowles think about, gee, maybe it isn't a vs, maybe it's a continuum.

JH: Now, let me also set this a little bit into context first for Pratt. And I'll be interested in your conversations with him and the reading of his book. I haven't read his book that just came off the press.

MaC: I keep looking at it, but I haven't gotten to it.

JH: I got an article with Pratt back in I think about '84 maybe, in which he deals with andragogy as a psychological concept and he is much more sharp in his criticism. Much sharper. I have here in 1993 an article by him: "Andragogy after 25 Years."

RM: I've had that--I've got that one also.

JH: You've got that one also?

RM: And basically, I said the same thing. It's just a reprint of his 1988 article and he relies heavily on the Carlson article, which is what I…

JH: He just says: "Andragogy's contribution to…questions regarding the meaning antecedents of facilitation and purposes." But…

RuV: Don't hide that article, John.

JH: What?

RuV: Don't hide that article.

RM: --but here.

RoV: You got copies?

RuV: You have copies?

RoV: Oh, you're good!

LB: You are good!

JH: I dug out, I tracked down his earlier one that I will make available to us. I don't have it today, but I'll--later...

RM: Which earlier article?

JH: The '83 article. '84? Something on him that was done at the Adult Education Research Conference in the proceedings and he--he is MUCH sharper there, sharp in his criticism, so…

RM: Well, one of the things you asked us to do was to point out strengths and weaknesses and his article overall was very weak, I think, in that he kept contradicting himself. He'd say this and then contradict it. They can share and then he says: "However, direction and support are the teacher's key role."

RuV: Roger, is that an indication that the author is in the process of developing his own thoughts onthat.

RM: I believe so.

MaC: Um hmm.

RM: Now I haven't read anything after his 199e-- And then one of the other things he wanted us to point out in our reviews here was how does this contribute to the debate, and I think we've answered that question today. It does bring into focus we need to define "self-directedness" and--because obviously I didn't have a correct concept of that.

MaC: It's kind of like John said. Some people take self-directedness as I'll just go do my own thing and learn whatever I want to learn. That's not putting it in the context of what it really is.

JH: I'll try and dig out that definition that Elaine Sweeney developed in her dissertation.

RuV: I'll bring her dissertation next time.

JH: You've got it?

RuV: I got a copy.

JH: Okay.

RuV: I will even try to find that stuff before the next session.

JH: And she basically through--what she did in her dissertation was to focus on an appropriate structure for implementing self-directed learning while meeting university requirements in internships and independent studies in adult education programs. And she used our internships and independent studies which she was involved in doing some teaching and facilitating on as the case in point and I think did an excellent job in terms of--and part of what she came out with was a redefinition of self-directed learning from what it had been. So that's an interesting piece of it.

MaC: And self-directed learning is not all of andragogy.

JH: True!

MaC: I mean, a lot of people think they're synonymous. We're just talking one piece.

RM: It's just one piece, I mean, as Pratt says, "That's one piece. This is two pieces. That and they should be taught through collaborative methods.

RuV: One of the things I've started doing for myself…

MaC: It's more than two also.

JH: That's Pratt.

RuV: …in trying to give, to develop an understanding, is I've started looking it from a teacher-centeredness to a student-centeredness kind of…. And I do see that as a dichotomy, at least at this moment. But much of what I'm reading now, I try to look at it from: Okay, what are the implications if I take a teacher-centered approach? What are the implications from a student-centered approach? And I really think that we need to find a way of getting rid of this concept: "Well, adult education, self-direction means I can do what I want." No! Doesn't work that way! There are…

MaC: Well, you can do what you want, but that may not be a success.

RuV: Well, okay, get what I want and get it approved and get through. No, it is a negotiated situation. I think one of the things that sets the teacher-mentor-facilitator in an adult education environment apart is an openness and--well--a very humanistic concept: You, the learner, bring something of value to this relationship in the first place. Okay? And then, secondly, an openness. I know how I learn but I'm not sure that at this moment, just having met you, I can pinpoint how YOU best learn. Why don't you tell me how you best learn and with my experience, my background, my knowledge, we'll find the appropriate framework.

RM: Let me ask you this. This is just food for thought. Is there a difference between adult learning and adult training?

RuV: Well, that's an age-old discussion.

RoV: From the standpoint--and this may not answer that question but a similar one--adult education vs. adult training--they must be somewhat different because we--we use two different terms to describe education and training. In fact, I did a thing in your comparative ed class last year about this. I'll bring it next week. There's a whole raft of things. We call these people "professors" and these people "trainers" or "facilitators." We use tests and generally norm-referenced items by way of evaluating this. This is a "how was it for you" evaluation, personal referral from the person, the attendee, or participant. We call these people "students"; we call these people "trainees," "participants," whatever. There's a whole different language that we use in all of these aspects, so there must be some difference, at least--whether it's artificial or not--we've created a difference to describe these two different processes.

LB: Well, I was going to say, this little article that I just copied over lunch talks about a convergence between education and training. You know. Now I haven't read it…

RuV: Well, it may be, as I said this morning, I became aware of the name "Knowles" on the business side, not the education side, and having been somewhat of a student of business what my recollection--this is 25 years ago, so it is a recollection--what my recollection is is that I looked at him as part of the concepts involved in management by objectives. And instead of applying that to the desk or the pilot's seat, or whatever the job was, we were now talking about it applied to how does this person develop himself further. First as a professional, second as an individual. Okay? And so maybe the difference in language between training and education is just purely where it grew up. It grew up in a different environment.

RM: Well, you've heard of Malcolm Knowles in health care. You heard of him in business. I can guarantee, I could ask a hundred aviation trainers or educators who Malcolm Knowles is and they'd say he's a third baseman for the Cubs.

RuV: Well, you might be right. I think that was 1928, wasn't it?

RM: I mean, I had NEVER heard of him.

LB: Well, I was in a program in higher ed and we didn't talk about Malcolm Knowles. And we dealt with adults every day at the university. But it wasn't seen as…

MaC: But you're looking at areas--first of all, you're looking at two divergers who go out and find things, even if they're not handed to them…

RuV: I think that's a fair statement.

MaC: …secondly, you're also looking at, for health care you're looking at a more holistic environment, where constant education--education as opposed to training--is just the norm. So, you know, I don't know about business but…

RuV: Dbudubdub. No. Not the right time to say it.

RoV: Honey, it's hard to transcribe that what you just said. [Laughter] Dbudubdub.

RuV: I will leave that problem to you!

JH: Well, you know part--go ahead.

RoV: Well, I was just going to say, as I said this morning, the first time I heard it was in an HRD class, a master's program, and that was only because the school was prior known as a school of education, and I think they appreciated the emphasis of adult learning practice and theory. And so they included that as part of their program and that was rather foresightful of them, I think, in 1985.

RM: Well, I see nothing but good coming out of this for our cycle; however, I'm grappling with how to implement it. That's one of the things that we've talked about.

RuV: And it may take time, Roger.

MaC: Oh, yeah.

RM: So it's going to take some exploration. You and I've talked about coming over and visiting to see how we do it.

RoV: Dr. Henschke, I interrupted you.

JH: Well that--that's all right. That's fine. But I think that's an important aspect of it. Before we jump to conclusions about how to fix something or how to change something or correct it or do something with it, we have to find out what really is there…

RuV: And whether or not it's wrong.

JH: …and look at it and know what it is before, you know-- One of the problems that we as human beings many times have is that we may not get any other exercise than jumping to conclusions.

RoV: The Bowery Boys used to call that "jumping to contusions."

JH: --without ever knowing what is there. But I think that's an important aspect so that we understand, have some understanding as to where people are and then say: "Where is it we need to go with this? What if anything needs to be changed? Is there anything that needs to be changed?" And then make those determinations. I call the other a "template mentality." You know. "Just--just talk to me. I've got this handy-dandy little thing in my pocket that whatever your problem is, I can fix it with this!

RoV:: It goes in this box! Yes!

RM: I would say that from this 1988 article his strength was, let's look at these variables, especially the situation variables. The teacher…

RuV: Well, I think the teacher is one of the situation variables.

RM: Yeah. Be a good argument.

RoV: Or the abilities of the instructor, anyway.

LB: I think there are instructor variables.

RuV: I think there are separate…

RM: …but not the argument he…

LB: No, I don't think that just because they haven't learned, or they haven't taught…

RuV: …it knocks out the concept of adult learning.

LB: Exactly.

RoV: By the way, as a housekeeping issue, I don't--you may have done this, so forgive me, but we're referring to "Andragogy as a Relational Construct" by Daniel D. Pratt and also "Andragogy after 25 Years" by Pratt. For the purposes of the tape. Because 25 years from now they won't know.

LB: Or maybe care!

RM: You're transcribing this, right? Because I'd like to read in about 65 pages of…

RoV: Into the minutes? Okay!

LB: 25 years from now technology will be available to read that tape.

RuV: Excellent software in 25 years!

JH: And I will bring a copy of the prior article of Pratt's.

RM: And what I'd like to do if that's okay with you guys is I'll probably try to be in touch with him. Have you ever talked with him before?

JH: I have--the only time I can remember talking with him--well, I talked with him twice. I congratulated him when he got that award at our national conference this year for the book that he published and I'm sorry I can't even say what the title is and I'm not sure what it was he discussed, but I'm sure it was on andragogy. The other time that I've--if I remember correctly, it was at the 1986 Adult Education Research Conference at Syracuse University and we were in one of the sessions--that's the big conference of the Midwest Research to Practice,okay?--it really is the one--it was the mother that gave birth to Midwest Research to Practice, if you will. Anyway, at that conference, he presented a paper and I can't remember even what the topic was. I probably could find it if I went back and looked, and I'm certain it was him, although if it wasn't him, I'm going to apologize profusely to this group. But after he got done with his what he said--it was a very scholarly, academic and I understand the Adult Education Research Conference is kind of focused in that particular direction, rather than the connection between research and practice. I said: "How can you apply this, or what does this have to do with adult learners?" And he said: "Nothing! And it shouldn't have to." Okay? And I think we need to understand that there are--there is the perspective that--and it exists in this university--I mean, that's not just Dan Pratt or whoever that guy was that talked about that. There are people who in the academic setting say when you are reseraching and generating new knowledge, probably most of it has no application whatever to anybody and it shouldn't have to, because that is not what knowledge generation is about.

MaC: That's Pure research.

JH: That is pure research.

RuV: Are you saying that exists in only two universities?

RoV Everywhere! In academia!

JH: I'm saying that not so that I--you know, just get the impression that was Dan Pratt's or whoever that person was, their perspective. That is an academic perspective which is--which IS. Okay?

RuV: There is a certain…

RM: Well, Pratt is--like him or not--he's a big name in adult learning. I believe he's a reviewer, isn't he, for Adult Ed Quarterly?

JH: Oh, yes!

MaC: And I've got my name in on the waiting list for that, too, so it's not THAT big a deal. If I can get on…

RuV: Well, that's still the impostor syndrome on your part.

MaC: Big name is a relative term.

JH: Well, if you wanted to, you could go up and talk to him. In Vancouver.

RM: Well, they start that up here in April again.

RuV: I may have to fly with you, Roger. I'll take the jump seat. Go with you.

MaC: Can you get us a reduced rate?

JH: Probably not!

RuV: Not in public when it's being taped!

LB: Exactly!

RoV: We discussed field trips last time.

JH: But now you're beginning to understand that that's part of what goes on in terms of this debate, this whole debate. We're talking about contrasting points of view in terms of pure academic research vs. applied research, if you will.

RuV: Which, by the way, is a gorgeous lead-in to Kerry's article.

JH: Shall we take a break, or do you want to move ahead?

RuV: Break would be fine. While we do that, there is a logical flow of three articles. Kerry has one and I have the other two and so I will do some dumping on desks during the break.

LB: Perfect!

RoV: Oh, when we come back, too, I want to make an announcement about a program and also Rudi will need to give directions before we all get away from here.

JH: One of the things I was going to say at the end that I got deterred from, on this issue of the difference in words, "training," "learning," and so forth, I did a little bit of investigation in terms of antecedents to andragogy and some of that material, which is only scratching the surface of the meanings of words, might be part of subsequent discussion because I think there is some different mergings and divergings of the meanings of those words in some of the historical contexts.

RuV: And I think we're going to begin to get into that area with this. We have a series of three articles and then you have my reaction to two of those with them. The first one I would like us to look at is--and I wish Peter had done his thing last week instead of this morning because I would know what the use of a handbook was before I wrote my reaction. But the first one is Malcolm Knowles' chapter in the ASTD Handbook on andragogy. And if we may start with that, what I give you in my reaction--it's the one that looks like this, actually, I apologize, it looks like this--it has the publishing information of the Handbook on top.

JH: Have you got one for--

RuV: What I have tried to do and what I will--unless you guys want it differently--in my reaction paper I first give a very quick content of the article description. And what Knowles is doing here is he's doing his--it appears to me, Dr. Henschke--his missionary field-building on the concept of the field of andragogy to HR professionals, human resource professionals, people who he suspects may have some knowledge, but they don't consider themselves educators as we discussed earlier this afternoon. They're trainers, so they may not have delved into andragogy. In addition to that, from his perspective, probably they are practitioners rather than academicians. I doubt that Dr. Knowles would have academic pedantry within him. He understands there is a connection, from everything I've read, between the theory and the practice, but there are--he's probably also aware that there are quite a few practitioners who really don't pay much attention to the theory or the thought process they're busy doing. And so what this chapter in the Handbook really is is a quick expose' of andragogy from Knowles' perspective. And as such, I'm trying to indicate here that to me his strength is that he's become by now--and I suspect this was written in the mid-1980's--he's become by now quite good and quite fluent at doing that sort of thing. He basically lays out what the terms are. He lays out the Greek history of the term. He mentions Lindeman, then he documents studies by Tough, Peters, and others. I'm now on page 254: "And then came andragogy…" That whole paragraph is probably worth reading. He then credits the development of the term itself to the Europeans. He was introduced to it in the 1960's and that's why there is a series of articles here. The other two articles are European authors. And then he goes into on page 255-256, he lays out his by then six assumptions about adult learners. Those of us who have done any reading on Knowles' concept of andragogy probably are familiar with them. Then on page 258 he starts with the implication for practice and this is where he begins the translate the theory to the practice in the human resource area and he does it from a program development point of view. So he does it from Dr. Cooper's--what is that, Adult Education 414 that she--is it 414?--the curriculum and program--okay, he does it from that kind of point of view out here. Lays it out and basically tells us what as either human resource people or as adult educators we need to pay attention to. "Climate-Setting," and he defines a number of climate factors. "Creating a Mechanism from Here to Planning" on 260. Continued on that page "Diagnosing Participants' Learning Needs," "Translating Learning Needs into Practice," "Designing and Managing a Pattern of Learning Experiences." My feeling is that there really was nothing new. He had written this in many of his texts up to then. Then he indicates right there on page 261: "Hey, I've come to the stage now that I don't see it as I did in 1970--pedagogy vs. andragogy--I see it as a continuum. There's a right time and right place for each of them." And then he comes into "Preparing for the Future" and basically he ties it into, for those of us from the business background, very well concepts that are beginning to be bantered around in organizational development/organization development. Pretty much beginning to develop a systems approach. I might suggest that when you get a chance you really read the very last paragraph. So that's the context. It is also to me the strength of his chapter. He does a good job to outsiders laying out what he is--can I say "what he is about, John?" Is that the right terminology?--what he, Malcolm Knowles, is about. Okay? The only weakness that I really find is a statement-- It is an immaterial weakness, let me preface it that way. I only responded to Dr. Henschke's challenge of "find the weakness."

RoV: Create a weakness if you must! Make one up!

JH: You MUST have one!

RuV: It is a totally immaterial factor. If you come, please, to page 261, the second paragraph under "But not Andragogy vs. Pedagogy," he says: "As I see it now, whereas for thirteen centuries we have only one model of assumptions and strategies in education, the pedagogical model, now we have two." I think that that is a--all right, I'll let my European background show--that is a typical American historical view. If I look at it, the history of education is a history of adult education and ONLY since about the mid-1800's have we dealt with education from a children's point of view. That's when we started institutionalizing education because we now have the societal need as a result of the change from an agricultural economic society to an industrial society, we now have a societal need that children must be prepared for a working life and that includes a certain amount of regimentation. That happens at the same time historically that education comes down to the population instead of the aristocracy and so you get large numbers where we are being asked by societies--at least in the Western World--to make sure that people coming out of these educational institutions have certain skills, certain habits, and certain behaviors, one of which is look at the clock. So I think--I had to pick an argument with Dr. Knowles--Dr. Henschke will forgive me for that--his concept that education has always been pedagogy I think is erroneous. And that's my only argument against good Dr. Knowles. And, yes, please argue with me on that.

JH: Well, I'm not sure of the source--I don't think it's here. When he uses the 13th century…

RuV: That means he's going back to about 700.

JH: 700. When the deterioration of the various scrolls really set in and many in the monastic schools…

RuV: So we now use children as copiers in a monastic education environment.

JH: Okay? And then the conception of education at that particular point became rote memorization or copying.

RuV: Copying.

JH: You know, it grew out of the copying of that material for the preservation of it. Okay? And it was the outgrowth of that that began to develop the system. Look at Comenius in what?--the 16^th century when he really bucks up against the system and says: "I'm going to try and create some kind of education that will certainly be other than" you know, only the rote memorization that seemed to be in the strictured system and what, did he get himself killed? I'm trying to remember.

RuV: Well, I don't know. He certainly died.

RoV: Of course, he would have done that anyway! Sooner or later.

JH: I do have a tape of Comenius that we can look at sometime along the way if we want to to see if we can get the historical perspective. But that's, that's what he's referring to here--and while he doesn't paint that background in there--

RuV: I still say that is then a very narrow interpretation of the history of learning and education in society and, yeah, I'm sure all of us would pick a very narrow thing and say: "Hey! That really existed a long time before." Globally seeing, globally looking, I think it's correct.

JH: Okay.

RuV: I told you it was an argument because I needed to find one. The next one, then, that I would like to refer you to should be out of the International Encyclopedia of Adult Education and Training by Bastiaan van Gent properly pronounced and, Dr. Henschke, can you help me Americanize it?

JH: Van Gent.

RuV: Van Gent? Okay, it looks like this, okay, and it should have a reaction perspective on it also.

RuV: Dr. van Gent was a Dutch professor at, gee!, it escapes me right now. He may very well have been at the University of Neimijing, the school that we referred to earlier, but besides being a professor as is not uncommon in the northern European countries, he also was involved in the establishment of national government policy. And in this article we're beginning to see a little bit different definition of the concepts and the meaning of the word "andragogy." He does go through the same Greek root tracing but then he starts delving into the use of the word in Europe. This all is based on Savicevic's work which is the article that we will look at next. If you come to page 115, under the heading of "Varieties of Andragogy" specifically at the top of the right hand column, "Andragogy as a Comprehensive Concept," where he lays out that, hey, really when you use that term--and while he doesn't do it, my sense was that he's talking to us Americans--when you use that term "andragogy," realize that you're talking about three things. You're talking about the practice of shall we call it "adult education"? That is his "A" there. And that, fine, you can call that "andragogy," he says. And then he says there is another factor and he brings in some humanistic and normative philosophical factors that are quite common in the middle of the current century--I'll go against popular concept--in the middle of the 20^th century in Western Europe where the philosophy is very much that every human being ought to develop to their full potential. That becomes normative and so he then says there is a normative framework, a theoretical-- And then he says there is a third level, and that's what we do at the universities. We study "ologies" and so now we introduce the concept of "androgogology" which is what we're doing here today, by the way, in case anybody has a question. When I'm doing my daily work, I'm a practitioner. I hope I'm beginning to practice andragogy. That practice is subject to some normative concepts that we were discussing earlier--like self-directedness, like self-diagnosing, like things like that and then, oh, by the way, on Saturday every other weekend, at least this Spring, I'm an academician and I do "ology." That was an introduction to me that was really kind of helpful. When you read the material just above his triad there, you will get some of the flavor of the weirdness of Dutch approaches and, by the way, if you think that only applies to the andragogy area, let me give you some of my childhood experiences. He then goes into on page 116 first pretty much a discussion of Knowles' approach and then on the other side, he says: "This is what was happening in Europe." And basically you can see the similarities. He also indicates below "The Faces of Andragogy," underneath the first set of--what do you call that?--table things: "A single adult educator or several specialists may carry out these different tasks." So…

JH: What side are we on?

RuV: I'm on page 116, right hand column. I guess I'm going to call it the second paragraph, John. Okay? And, Roger, this may be something that can help you start doing some thinking with reference to the situation at your employer that you were talking about earlier. Okay, we have a tendency I think, especially in the discussions that I feel I've had in the last year here to feel all of this must be centered in one individual, the andragological teacher, facilitator, mentor. Well, maybe that's not correct. And so when I read that earlier this week, it was one of these: "Hmmm! May deserve some thought process and some time and attention, some reflection." The last part of Dr. van Gent's---Van Gent?--the last part of Bastiaan's content is actually relatively negative and I was somewhat unpleasantly surprised with it. He says: "Look, as long we're trying to capture under one set of words and concepts these three different factors, andragogy is doomed." And I think that probably is going to tie in with an article later on that we're going to hear on from Lea in a little bit that's interesting stuff. What I would have preferred to my comments--again, the comments first content, strongest position, as I think I said in Knowles, van Gent does a pretty good job of explaining--at least for me from the European perspective--what andragogy is. The weak point to me is his last paragraph. What I would have preferred from an expert in the field is an advocacy approach, rather than a just reporting approach. And maybe that was your problem with--I don't know that you had a problem….

LB: This is not--this is a dictionary, so why would you just assume that an encyclopedia…

RuV: Like I said, I hadn't listened to Peter this morning, so I might have reacted differently. Okay? But what--

MaC: No, but this one is where people--this one I know in Minnesota this is the first one that adult education and HRD students are sent to.

RuV: And I would like to have seen a slightly more positive slant on it that this is a worthwhile field. And I think that Dr. van Gent probably felt that way from what I've seen in some other things that I've read in the last month where he's mentioned clearly and frequenlty. I don't think he was trying to put a death knell on it and yet to me when I read it, it came across that way and I think one of the ways he could have avoided that impression is by being more of an advocate, more of a missionary, if I may use the term that way, and say: "Hey! Look, we need to get some of these issues done." I think his contribution to the dialogue is quite clear, at least for me as an American educator and looker at andragology and andragogy and that stuff. Concept I hadn't thought about.

JH: Let me just do a couple of technical things here. I'm sorry--we included information on the editor. You have my article with you?

LB: Everyone does. You handed it out.

RuV: We all have each article.

JH: In the bibliography, I've got who the editor of this volume is.

MaC: Toonamen.

JH: Toonamen. Albert Toonamen.

MaC: Actually, that's is on this copy.

RoV: It's written on the top of the page. First page.

RuV: And he is what? South African?

JH: I don't think so. I think isn't he British?

RuV: Is he British?

MaC: He might be British but we need to go back to the--?

JH: Well, we need him back to the book, I think it has Toonamen's whatever his…

RuV: His vita.

JH: …his vita in there in the encyclopedia. Toonamen is the editor of this. You had "unknown editor."

RuV: And that is--you're talking about my reaction paper. I totally accept responsibility for that. I wasn't paying attention to that. I was more interested in getting my thoughts on paper of what…

JH: I just wanted to clear that up.

RuV: Yes, absolutely!

JH: Now, in the first page, the first full paragraph, it's interesting and this really was the first place I had remembered seeing this. I know Savicevic refers to Plato but here Kapp he has Kapp as referring to Plato's work on pedagogy. "It was meant to educate the minds of the young through science, their bodies through gymnastics, and their souls through art." Okay? And so I think hence my push beyond just the Greek origins which we will hear some about later. But I wanted to simply highlight that because I'd like to go back if possible and find Plato's work regarding that and at least cite that work where it was published.

LB: He doesn't have the Kapp. I don't see the Kapp article in there.

JH: He doesn't have Kapp's reference either.

LB: No. So I don't know where that…

RuV: Kapp? You will find it when Kerry does his thing. It will get there in just a moment.

KS: Kapp is all over the place.

RuV: Actually, he does reference Kapp to Savicevic.

JH: Okay?

LB: Okay.

JH: Anyway, I just wanted to make that comment.

RuV: Kerry, your turn.

JH: Well, other people may want to raise questions about that article.

RoV: Well, I just want to say that in a way this is a dictionary. It describes these terms and these applications but at the same time, anytime you venture into the editorial territory, then you've departed your dictionary role, is my thinking. "If the word 'andragogy' has any future, it can only be in the form for a generic term for 'adult education' and as a complement to 'pedagogy.'" That right there's important statement to me. He's saying: "There's not much hope for you people outside of tagging along with this other thing."

LB: Do you agree with that?

RoV: No, I don't but…

RuV: And he is an andragogue, saying that.

JH: Well, but, I think somewhere along the way we will be exposed to another--who had the article on the science of adult education? Somebody got that article.

RoV: Susan or…

JH: Okay, and that takes a counter point of view regarding that that I think there's some other things regarding that and we need to at least--I think that's critical for his point of view and we need to keep that and set that…

RuV: May I make a situational or historical comment? At the time he wrote this--and this may explain some of his pessimism--specifically in The Netherlands and in all of Western Europe you're looking at, as I recall the mid- to late-1980's when this is written (I know it's published later but that's when it's written), for 20 years prior to that government had very strongly funded all adult welfare, career change, professional and personal growth and development type things and done tremendous funding at the universities for the "ology" portion of it. What started happening after the election of Margaret Thatcher in England and then a year later in the conservative government in The Netherlands and then West Germany and even in France with Jacques Jeroc coming in, we start seeing that funding disappear suddenly, almost overnight literallly. And that did create a very pessimistic environment, at least in the university areas there and so maybe that is the root of his pessimism. The reason I suggested we go on to the other article is I think there is a tie-in between the three that I think we may want to look at.

LB: I agree. I just would like to mention this is something I hadn't thought about. When we were talking about the timeline even this morning, we were talking--and for the past two classes we've met, we've been talking about "toward a theory of adult education or a theory of andragogy." We haven't talked about the process of professionalization which he touches on in the future and actually doesn't Houle write a book about--who wrote Continuing Education and the Professions? That was Houle.

JH: Houle.

LB: Houle, yes. Okay. And he talks about the process of professionalization of--

RuV: --of becoming a profession.

LB: --of becoming a profession. And we haven't talked about that at all. About the profession of adult education vs. the theory of adult education. And is it a vs. or is it a, you know, different path that we could take? Which I don't--which I think is probably worth discussing in this class at some point. The process of becoming a profession. I think that might yield some further insights to the theory of andragogy.

RoV: Well, at the point that you have people whose title says "adult educator" or "professor of adult ed," doesn't that somehow--I mean, I'm not saying it's formalized but at some point people are getting paid in that capacity…

RuV: Well, but that doesn't turn it into a profession.

MaC: But there's an argument going on as to whether adult education is a field or a discipline. That's another argument.

RuV: And there is even discussion about the definition of those terms.

MaC: Um hmm.

RoV: That's right.

RuV: And then, by the way, there is the concept of adult education as a movement.

JH: You see, when--

RoV: I'll say this while the tape--his tape is off, anyway. It's the ego of the academician that makes some of these discussions even happen.

RuV: Occur.

JH: Well, I think that's correct because when I was dealing in some of the early years here at the University of Missouri-St. Louis to do, to carry forward the work of adult education, we were in a department that basically was suspicious about anything having to do with adult education and especially my particular role and professional position added to that hesitancy because in academic circles, I was not fully legitimate.

RuV: How does that feel, John? [Laughter]. Oh, sorry!

MaC: A lot of us illegitimates around here.

JH: I just said "not legitimate"--that's all! [Laughter]. Anyway--

MaC: And you have to be "irregular faculty."

JH: No. "Not regular." See. Because of my 13 years in Extension prior to coming here to campus with a split appointment, Extension people are non-regular faculty members. They are not regular faculty members, so we don't go through the tenure process. And when I came to this campus, I maintained that because I'm really still 50% Extension and maintained the position of being a non-regular faculty member.

RoV: After 30 years?

JH: Yes.

RoV: That's so amazing!

MaC: And if you get into the snooty status stuff he's somewhere around here.

JH: Well, and you see the deal was that I was a non-regular faculty member seeking to establish a field of study, if you will, or an area of subject matter, or whatever you want to call it, or a discipline, trying to establish it with some degree of legitimacy being a non-legitimate faculty member, so to speak, in terms of some people's perspective.

RuV: Getting close to illegitimate, John. Non-regular, non-legitimate…

JH: Well, what also drove them nuts--I mean, just absolutely went, made them go ballistic was the fact that the Dean, after I was here two years, the Dean of the School of Education asked me to be Chair of the Department of Educational Studies. And if you can imagine a non-regular faculty member…

RuV: Shorten that to "illegitimate."

MaC: Non-real.

JH: …with NO legitimacy, illegitimacy with no tenure and in that kind of thing, being a chair of a department with 27 faculty who are mainly tenure-track. That was a no-no.

RuV: Tell me about it.

JH: And a day after I got appointed to that, I received a letter from one of those that said I should not even consider that. And so I went to the Dean and I handed him and I said: "I'm not interested in stirring up controversy."

RuV: And he said: "But I am!" [Laughter].

RoV: Your very presence…

JH: I said: "Let me give my resignation." I said: "You find somebody else to do this!" He said: "Not on your life! I have made my decision and it stands. You are the chair of that department."

RoV: And all of your bastard children in this room thank you! [Laughter].

MaC: For God's sake, one of the illegitimate children is going to--taking the throne, you know. It's just…!

JH: And that was what sent some of our friends ballistic right on the spot. But one of the things was when he made that decision, I knew all the time that I was in that position, I always had his support and we had a conference down at Lake of the Ozarks orienting us to our job and the law office of the university came in and did a session for us and he said--and they said to us, and I remember this very well: "Just remember, we are only a phone call away from you."

RoV: In case you ever need a phone call? [Laughter]. Your one phone call.

JH: In case you ever need it, okay? No. No! For us to call him! For us to call the law office.

MaC: In case they're ragging on you, yeah.

JH: In case we got ragged on. They didn't mean that as a threat. They meant that as support toward us. A support item. "We're there to support. You're in the position of authority and we expect to back you up." And I was able to function in that particular way. So during that time I gained my, did my research that I needed to to get on the doctoral faculty, and now that we have some two professors that are on the tenure track, are on the regular track of faculty…

RuV: You mean Mary is not illegitimate?

MaC: I'm regular!

JH: No, she's regular. And so is Paulette.

RuV: Mary is legitimate.

MaC: I'm legitimate, yes!

JH: …and so it's all there. Now adult education is gaining some legitimate stature because of that. Okay? I'm just describing some of the contextual stuff that has to do with how subject matters become legitimate or not legitimate or--

MaC: I couldn't believe that in there--we have joined a new division. Have you told them about that?

JH: Not yet. It's being finalized right now.

MaC: It's being finalized and I thought it was really pathetic because I danced around and studied and keep studying in adult education and I wish there was some way we could hook some electrodes from brain to brain so I could just download…

RuV: Wouldn't that be nice?

MaC: …although we do have some different…anyway…

JH: If we didn't, there would be no need for one of us. [Laughter].

MaC; See, that's why you can't retire.

JH: Yet!

MaC: You jumped right into that one! No, but it was funny, we went to one of the educational leadership and policy study meetings and this was our visit to sort of bring some things out and everything and it was kind of like--John brought up the fact, he says: "For me, it doesn't make a lot of difference, but I want to know that this will be a conducive environment for Mary and Paulette to work toward tenure and that people will be supportive and all that." And I was--I started in with one of the professors that we were kind of worried about and the whole thing was is all of a sudden it dawned on me--and he just pretty much flat-out said it--that Paulette and I were on a much higher status than John already. And I just go like--doesn't knowledge and background and experience, I mean--experience doesn't count, I guess…

RuV: Not in academe.

JH: Well, and that dates back to one of the things we raised about Malcolm this morning. Retiring at age 65. I mean, it's like a given. There are certain rules that are in academe and you don't violate them.

RuV: There are advantages to following them and there are disadvantages.

MaC: I'm dropping over in class when I'm 130, that's…

JH: Anyway, that's probably more than what was necessary.

LB: Actually, that's a perfect example of what's in this paragraph about professionalization. This author talks about on 117: "Professionalization cannot derive only from sheer ambition of practitioners and academics who for many reasons seek territories of their own and improvement of their standard. It should always be seen within a specific historical, cultural, economic and political context of a particular society." And I would say particular society, or university, or organization.

RuV: And I think that's how he uses the word.

LB: Exactly. Exaclty. So I mean it's a perfect example of how people see faculty level as important.

JH: One of the things that my last discussion also related to was the fact that I had people raising the question along the way: "Well, whoever said adult education was a discipline?"

MaC: We can be a field, but discipline is…

JH: I said: "I don't--I'm not aware that adult education has EVER espoused to be a discipline. As I understand it, we had talked about being a field of study and I said I think there is a difference between those two." I was surprised at some of them because they thought we were trying to be a discipline.

RuV: And I think van Gent has set out rather clearly when he says, you know, translating from Dutch to English he used different words, but it's a field that borrows from other disciplines.

MaC: Well, education is like the discipline.

RuV: No, education isn't even a discipline. Can I say that here? Education borrows from psychology, from sociology, from anthropology.

JH: Yeah, but I want to say that it doesn't borrow exclusively from the outside. It borrows from the outside but it generates some of its own.

RuV: Is that a maturation, an age, length of existence, development issue?

JH: Well, at least for adult education, one of the things that happened in terms of Knowles' concept of andragogy as it emerged and if you look in the Adult Learner, Neglected Species, he goes into that quite at length. He says most of the studies and the research that's been done is how rats and pigeons evolved…

RuV: Look at when he wrote it.

JH: …or whatever, responded to stimuli--which was the old stimuli-response Pavlov's dog's research that went on--and some of it has to do with reaction to teaching or they're focusing on how children react to teaching, or it's talking about training, or it's talking about education vs. learning. And what the focus of adult learning or adult education is about has to do with the focus on the learning process within the adult. And there is somewhat of a differentiation. That's why he called it The Adult Learner: The Neglected Species. Whether or not that was appropriate or whatever, that's where he came up with that whole idea and so I have emphasized, when people have asked me: "What's this adult education program all about?" I basically have come down to one idea. We're focusing on the learning of adults. If it's about one thing, it's "what is the learning process and how does that take place, and how do we engage people in that process, or do we engage them?"

RoV: But philosphically why does anybody out there really care so much about whether we're a field, a discipline, a movement or some other durn thing? The only reason would be that they think some way that it either bastardizes--now we've used that word twice this afternoon!--

MaC: But that's really a good word.

RoV: …bastardizes their own milieu, or that it in some way detracts from the base of knowledge rather than adds to, or that--and this is my suspicion--that in some way it diminishes their own importance.

RuV: Well, it diminishes their own importance by interfering with their own empire-building or whatever and, therefore…

RoV: Because if you're not field-building, you probably are empire-building.

JH: That also has to do with the general tenor of the university historically because the trivium and quadrivium in subject matter was what education or what the university was about and there wasn't any such thing as education. All you had to do is acquire subject matter and, as a consequence, when education came along, they still have the problem of being seen either as the cash cow of the university or else as being second-class citizens. You ask any of the people over in the business school, or especially the arts and sciences. Arts and sciences considered education as being just about 99 and 99/100ths percent irrelevant.

RuV: Well, of course, the same argument has been thrown for 80 years at business schools.

MaC: Well, business, HR now thinks they're a discipline and they look down on HRD. So it's, you know…

RuV: And there is only one kind of business and I'm here to tell you it's finance. [Laughter].

RoV: No narrow views here!

RM: When I was at MU, I heard this exact conversation from the voc-ed people.

LB: Of course!

RM: Just substitute adult ed for voc-ed and, I mean, they feel like…

MaC: Well, voc-ed is…

RuV: I mean it, Doctor, let's go across the street to the business school and you'll hear the same conversation.

JH: And I think in terms of if we just set a context and move on, I don't own that problem.

LB: Good for you!

RoV: If they have energy around it, let them research it! [Laughter].

JH: Absolutely!

MaC: Oh, I gotta write that down!

JH: That's right! Okay.

RuV: I would like to hear the follow-up from Kerry on Savicevic's article, because I think it's going to tie a lot of this together.

KS: Well, basically, just the last 25 minutes, we have just talked about my paper.

RoV: We do your work for you, Kerry. Intro and conclusion.

KS: But, to start with, this was a comparative historical analysis. It was "Modern Conceptions of Andragogy in a European Framework." And last, what we were talking about what Rudi started out with, we had our Malcolmites, then we had our…

LB: Your what?

KS: Malcolmites, whatever you want to call them. All the ones that… We've been speaking about the Americanization of this term the last two days and Rudi basically came in with van Gent terminology from Holland, or the Dutch one, and this article actually did the comparative historical analysis of practical and theory of adult education and basically, it talked about where this term came from, how it progressed in Europe, 10 countries in Europe, and how it grew, how they built their turfs, how they had their turf wars, how the five different schools of thought came out from Europe and what we were just talking about before. Instead of just universities having their turf wars, these 10 countries in Europe had their turf wars. Basically only on a larger scale because if you think about it economically and socially, if you have a couple of educators go out there, let's say from Germany, and say: "Hey, I want this. I have this great idea. This is the way we should do it. This is how we're going to do it." And the government backs you and gives you money for it, do you think they're going to come back and say they made a mistake? No. But then all the other countries took that same concept and made it--and they individualized it, basically. And so there were many turf wars over there. The first part of the article, page 179, it basically talked about historical aspects of the 10 countires and they talk about Comenius in the 17^th century. He was supposedly one of the founders of education, of European education. And it gave a brief introduction on that, and it was very short and very succinct. The whole article is short and succinct. This is probably a book synthesized down to 20 pages from 3-, 500 pages, 600 pages and went down to 20 pages so each country he talked about with10 countries, if you look through the article, he probably only had a page and half on each country, so you couldn't really get a lot of detail. It's a great introduction. That's a plus for it. That the positive aspect of it. But it could be a negative if you're looking for something more detailed. Another positive aspect of this article was that it gave you a lot of research, it gave you a lot of resources to go to. If you read the article, you can go back to get all the main educators of that particular country. At least a start, so it's a great starting article if you want to learn about European andragogy. But the article did point out that terms have a major impact on the way the country perceives it, as you already know. Some of the higher thinkers thought "andragogy" was a science. Other ones named it "adult education." Other ones named it "adult pedagogy." So the terms were very confusing. Probably the language messed them up too because when you translate from one version to another, it probably reflected a major problem there. The meat of the article basically had the post-secondary war, and that was after World War II, and they covered the 10 countries. And on page, starting on page 184, they talk about UNESCO in there, and the philosophy of lifelong education and how that influenced this term and the concept of adult education to go throughout all the countries over there. And then universities played a major part in the term and the program because the countries they were rebuilding over there at that time, if you think about it. They were rebuilding. Countries were financing the education for adults to get the workers back into the force. It was devastated over there, so they had to train these people.

RuV: It's also a welfare state issue.

KS: It was a welfare state issue. Major. So they had to train these adults over there. They had no trades, or very few trades, to reeducate them, so there was a major impact of rebuilding Europe. And there was some scientific and critical review in there, but each country was almost basically doing their own thing. You had some cross-overs, like Germany started the term but then a lot of that stuff, since they're really closely related, it would go to Yugoslavia, and would go to Austria, and would go to Russia, Poland. And it would spread out. So each one would take their--take that stuff and actually spread it out. Lot of names in here like Jay Nobles in here. He spoke of adult pedagogy as a subdiscipline of the science of education. And they gave you one or two pages in there, a brief explanation of what each country was doing, what the philosophy was and basically how they were constructing that system. They talked about the Dutch system and the Dutch system was basically they went to a--that's on 187--it became more of a social thing, a social learning, adult learning function, but they brought in a lot of social, it was a social class type thing where they were treading on different aspects of social work and trying to get into these "ology" things and then you had turf battles going on, and that's where Rudi came in and told a little about the turf battles at the universities because they were treading on areas that were historically not theirs. And basically in the Dutch area, or the Dutch part, it failed. Or they say it wasn't as--it didn't have a greater impact because they were trying to do everything for everybody and it wasn't working. France had a bunch of people there and they brought up a couple of French authors. This is on page 186, about the first paragraph. Basically, they tried to distinguish between pedagogy and andragogy. So it was a very good article overall. They tell you a little about the British conceptions and the Nottingham Group. Knowles went in there and they had a -we talked a little bit earlier today about the Nottingham Group and how they had their turf wars. Lot of names in there. C. Griffin was in there. P. Jarvis is in here. Titmus is in here. A lot of folks on terminology and concepts. Then they came to the finish, concept of andragogy, and that was about a page and a half. Basically talked about a lot of relationships between pedagogy and andragogy and it went further and further. Then it talked about the Soviet Union, which I thought was kind of interesting. But if you think about it, they picked up approaches from Germany and Poland and a few other countries and then during the Stalin times they made it more--they got their propaganda and everything else involved and that. Indoctrination process in there. And it wasn't really--they didn't do a lot of research until the 60's, started getting back to the 60's and they were just using it as indoctrination purposes. And then they talked about Czechoslovakia. They said Czechoslovak authors "did not refer to andragogy as a practical discipline and learned that in no such terms that they should repeat the errors of pedagogy as regards to normative and prescriptions." They were talking about that. Then you got the Polish and Hungarians in there. So they just went through about 10 different countries. A couple things they did talk about, they had five schools of thought and andragogy is one of the disciplines. In one of the schools they had--this was from Finland, Holland and Yugoslavia…

RuV: 197 to 198.

KS: 197. 198. That's the last part here. Yes. And they said one of the disciplines in Finland, Holland and Yugoslavia said "andragogy is one of the disciplines of pedagogy and pedagogy is the integrated science of education." So that was one school of thought. Then: "Andragogy is the integration of science, including all education and learning processes and other forms of guidance and orientation, for example, human and professional development and social work." That was another school. A third school was a "pragmatic practice approach to teaching and learning in adults, lacking social and philosophical foundations." The fourth one is the "denial of the possible founding of andragogy as a science." The fifth one is "andragogy as an integral science of adult education. There are a number of subdisciplines." So there's five different schools and they grew up in numerous countries. Some of the authors picked them up, some didn't. Like I said, strengths: this was a great starting point if you want to learn about European, this subject in Europe, or European history. Very general. Documentation was very good. He gave you a starting point with all the references and gave you a good starting point. You go into this you can really find out what they were talking about and get into it. I did look at a few of those and they were--although sometimes they're hard to find because they're European and they're in a foreign language, but they were there.

RoV: And then when you find it, how do you know you have?

KS: You know, they used a holistic approach in this whole thing. It was a very good article, a very good starting article. That's all I got for it.

RoV: I think Margie reviewed that one too, didn't you?

MK: I also have the one on Yugoslavia by Savicevic. I just thought it was a good overall. He also tries to compare the Western with the European, compare and contrast.

KS: It was good compare and contrast plus he gave you at least where it came from starting in Germany and you could almost visualize how it grew. How it went to Poland. How it went to Yugoslavia. How it went to Russia. How it went to Holland. How it went to France. And if you look at that and it spread out and each one took their--the way I felt about it, each one took the pieces they liked and made it a science out of it. Or made something out of it.

MK: Pointing out that the roots are basically the same historically. The same coming from Greece.

RuV: The comment I was going to make is that when you see this see this German word "pedagogiek," realize that while it equates to our "pedagogic," they use it in a much more integrated terminology equating to our term "education." Okay? So that may be where some of the confusion stems from. We see that word and we think they're talking pedagogy; no, they're talking education. Okay? And that helps. To me, and if I may pick on your comment, I found this to be an excellent introduction to the field, if you wish, or discipline, or andragogy and I don't in my critique again, along the lines of my reaction to the Knowles chapter, I had to find a weakness so I said: "Okay, it's Euro-centristic." And that today in America is a politically incorrect approach. Well, too bad! Too bad!

RoV: Which is another politically incorrect approach.

RuV: I think this is probably an excellent introductory article and, John, I went as far as being impolite and making a recommendation that the faculty consider including this article as part of the literature for the 410 course because I remember when I was in that 410 course trying to figure out what the hay is this word in the first place, and with due respect, the current textbook in that course doesn't do a very good job of it. The Adult Learner. And I think…

JH: The Adult Learner: The Neglected Species? Is that the book you're talking about?

LB: Learning in Adulthood

RuV: Both the Malcolm Knowles and the Caffarella and Merriam book, neither of them--it would have helped me, let me restate it, it would have helped me before I opened either of those books to have read something like this.

KS: Another analogy that I got out of this as I was reading it was like take an example of religion. Everybody might believe in the Supreme Being but you'd have different types.

MaC: Right.

KS: You've got Baptist, Catholic, Jewish, whatever you want to call it in there and you've got in each country, each section and people who will profess that to the limit. And that's how I take these to where it came from, how it grew, how it was manifested. It was a great introduction to that.

LB: So in that analogy, what's the Supreme Being?

KS: Whatever that would be. I'm just saying it would be…

MaC: The education of adults in a different way.

RuV: Let's restate it.

KS: Adult learning. It would be adult learning.

LB: Okay.

KS: So that would be the Supreme Being and then you have different religions involved in that, or different ways you would go. And then give the historical account how they did it.

MaC: Yeah, and there's this funny thing about how they're talking it. Now you're going to start seeing it if you haven't already, a lot of things are referring to "critical pedagogy."

RuV: Um hmm.

MaC: The way it is taught at the University of Minnesota, it IS andragogy but they will NOT use that word. In fact, the adult educators don't even use that word very often.

KS: They mentioned that in the article the same thing. I mean, they just had different titles. Adult learner. Adult pedagogy.

MaC: You're going to hear about the new pedagogies, too. And a lot of them are, in theory, close to andragogy. It's just, you know, it's like people just won't say the word.

RuV: One of the things that I found interesting is that throughout the various countries, it is clear that one of the roots of andragogy is this positivistic humanistic philosophy. It is quite clear and it jumped out at me in the section on England. But if you look at the German andragogy, it's there. We gotta take these poor laborers and bring them up to a useful--no, not useful, they're already useful--a full life, okay? And that part of the roots clearly comes across all over the place. Was it in Finland that Paulo Friere was--

JH: Brazil.

RuV: No, no, no, no.

MaC: No, the English, the Nottingham Group.

RuV: I think he was influenced by--the Nottingham Group, of course, was influenced by him. I know he's Brazilian but I think in the article--it says…. I know it was in England but I also thought Finland and that's an interesting comment.

RoV: 188.

RuV: If you look at the Finnish history, you have somebody like Paulo Friere has an influence. Sorry, Roger.

RM: That's okay. This is a great thing right here on page 183. I've never heard of this before but…referring to "anthropogogy."

RuV: Yeah.

RM: That's a science of teaching people which covers two scientific areas: pedagogy and andragogy.

RuV: Yeah. And the other thing that I like all over the place is way at the bottom of page 179 where Savicevic is giving his definition of "andragology." Way at the bottom there. Okay? "In this study, andragogy implies a scientific discipline." I mean, he makes no bones about it. Our whole argument of today is over, folks. Okay? "…scientific discipline examining problems of adult education and learning, in all of its manifestations and expressions whether formal or informal, organized or self-guided" and then the "anthropogogy" all of a sudden starts making sense.

MaC: Um hmm.

JH: What page is that?

RuV: Anthropogogy? Page 183, way at the top, four lines down. It's italicized.

MaC: "Anthropogogy: the science of teaching people."

RM: Now where'd you see--where's that one you were talking about?

RuV: The very first page, introduction--you got it?

RM: Right here, makes the point. Must be.

RoV: Now if we could convince all those naysayers and critics…

LB: What's interesting is that this "anthropogogy" on 183, according to the author of my article is formed incorrectly.

RM: Uh oh!

RoV: Yeah, I started to say Lea and we had discussed her article, which I think is so fascinating and really kind of builds on everything that we've said up to now, all these different terms.

RM: Well, it looks like these things are building on each other.

LB: Yeah, it's kind of cool!

RoV: Imagine that! Synchronicity!

KS: The funny part I see about it is that there's so turf wars and so many different aspects of this that the "ologies" just eat you up and just puts this whole thing , our whole concept, on the back burner, or discounts it totally.

RoV: I think that's the…

LB: That's the perfect ending to today.

MaC: That's the thing that the Dutch perspective wanted it to be more than just education or academia, but then they got into trouble because they bumped into turf. And yet this article is saying pretty much everything. I mean, that's at the bottom of 179, right?

KS: Then they got in big trouble because the psychology, sociology and all these other departments said: "Hey! You're on the wrong turf!" And they squashed them, basically. If I heard--as I'm assuming in the article. I don't know if that's true or not but they--it--that type of philosophy did not stop or assist them.

RoV: Do we have time for Lea's article? It would be a good capstone, I think.

LB: Well, speaking of-- We'll start with this. This is a little test--quiz. "Gogy-Mania."

RM: Lea, you're--

RoV: We'll have gogy version of Trivial Pursuit.

LB: These were all terms that were used somewhere in my article. Okay? So the challenge here is to read the "gogies"--"gogi"--and match them with the definitions.

RM: This is so easy I’m going to let Mary do it!

RoV: He's going to cheat off your paper, Mary, is what he means!

RM: "Synergogy."

LB: On the right hand side definitions. On the left hand side are terms. Put the letter of the definition in the blank space.

RoV: Pedagogical methodology.

LB: Yes, it is. It really is. Well, that's the truth. Kind of interactive. We haven't done any paper and pencil kind of thing today. So, you know…

RoV: Is it "anthrogogy" or is it "anthropo" like it was in the other article?

LB: No, no, no. That's a different term.

RM: Lea, are there more answers than there's…?

LB: No.

RM: So they're all going to match.

LB: They're all used. They're all used once. And I had not heard of some of these terms before.

RoV: What do we get if we get them all right?

LB: I actually have prizes out in the car. Candy bars…

RuV: And I think that's the right place for your prizes.

RoV: Probably have to walk out there and get them, don't we? Oh, well.

LB: Yeah, well…

LB: What's coming around now is the actual article. This was actually a paper that was presented at the Midwest Research to Practice Conference in '97.

MaC: I thought it sounded familiar.

LB: Um hmm. Michigan State. I don't know this author. In '97, he was an Assistant Professor at Indiana University in Pennsylvania.

RuV: Oh, really? Neat school. Some good faculty members in the business school there.

LB: Okay. Here, we'll go to the answers. "Synergogy: systematic approach to learning in which the members of small teams learn from one another through structured interaction." "Anthrogogy: generic set of principles that guide lifelong learning." "Humanogogy."

RuV: It would be nice if they would create words that are pronounceable, wouldn't it?

LB: "A theory of learning that takes into account the differences between people at various ages, as well as their similarities." That's the way it was worded. "Eldergogy: an approach to learning used with older adults." "Pedagogy: Art and science of teaching children." We'll get into that difference in a second. "Andragogy: Art and science of helping adults learn." And "educational gerontology: learning that distinguishes the special features and aspects involved in working with older adults." The author of this paper basically talks about the fact that things are getting out of control with all of these "gogies" and that many of them if you go back to the standard way of creating English words--the standard practice of creating words--some of them were created wrong. Just plain wrong. And that that leads us to--down a road that sets adult educators up for--not good practice. It makes the leap that if your words are, if you're going to be using all these terms to discuss your profession or your theory and they're all wrong, that that really places you in not great position in academia or as a profession. I have a little, a couple of notes about the sources--including the American Heritage Dictionary for some of the definitions, Dictionary of the English Language, Latin, Greek dictionaries, as well. Many education sources come from the Journal of Lifelong Learning. That's where many of his sources come from and, of course, Adult Ed Quarterly. And I will say I thought he did a fair review of sources until the class this morning with all the other sources we learned about in the library and which I copied during lunch and I went--hmm!--well, maybe his review was not as extensive as I first thought. That would probably be a weak point if I were to take this up today. We talked about, earlier this morning, we talked about how Malcolm Knowles first coined--used the term "andragogy," he spelled it "a-n-d-r-O-g-o-g-y" when he first used that word. And when he investigated that learned that that was an incorrect way of the suffix--putting together the word, that should be

"a-n-d-r-A-g-o-g-y." Then he talks about on page 38, the second page of the article, it talks about the suffix "gogy,"--"g-o-g-y." And it talks about how Knowles avoided this pitfall when he sought the advice of the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. So technically, andragogy is a correctly formed word. Now some of the other words that we saw on the little quiz…

RuV: Can I interrupt?

LB: Go ahead.

RuV: Gee, I feel SO much better! [Laughter]

RoV: Malcolm would be so proud, so proud that he popularized the proper form of the word, yes.

LB: I will say that many of the words after andragogy and pedagogy I had not--I was not familiar with. Synergogy, team learning--I was like there's a "gogy" for that?

MaC: No, there is no "gogy," remember? That would be "agogy."

LB: "Agogy." Exactly.

RuV: So we call it "synagogy."

LB: That's right. Also, we talk about the article we just put away. Technically that word, Rudi, that you mentioned earlier…

RuV: "Anthropogogy?"

LB: Yeah, This author would say that it should be with an "A." Should be "p-a-g-o-g-y."

RuV: Do we realize that he's talking about it from an English language perspective and the other article was really looking it from a Germanic language perspective.

LB: It's very true. The whole point of the first part of this article is it is the formation of words. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, I'm not a linguist. I don't know about the proper formation of words and I'm sure if you were a linguistic purist…

MaC; Which Trenton was.

LB: Okay. …that you wouldn't accept many of the terms.

JH: You say he's a purist?

MaC: Well, in this case he was being fairly derisive of doing it incorrectly.

RuV: And therefore, pedantic approach.

LB: So my strengths, the strongest points to this article, okay sure! I can say that many of the terms used in adult ed may not follow the commonly accepted processes of English word formation. Okay? Sure! I'm not an expert in that. This gentleman is. Okay. He makes that point and I can buy into that. I can also buy into his point that "g-o-g-y" is not correct; it should be "a-g-o-g-y" should be the suffix that used when forming those words. And maybe his point is well taken that perhaps there are enough words used to describe the facilitation of education with adults. And maybe the creation of terms may not be necessary. Maybe in creating a practice--uh, the profession--that the more words you create, the more complicated you make them the more esoteric you get and the more elitist you get and maybe that isn't the best way to go. That's one thing. Now, I DO take exception with many things the gentleman said. And basically my basic objection stems from when he makes this leap that if words are formed incorreclty and improperly, therefore, they're nonsense. Throw them out! That's it! That he makes the statement that adult educators are trying to become linguistic innovators. I'm not sure I agree with that. I'm not sure I've met ANY adult educator that says: "Ooh! I want to be a linguistic innovator!" He also talks about on page 40 that andragogy gains meaning only when compared to pedagogy. Okay? I'm not sure I agree with that.

RoV: That would be like saying children are only important when they're compared to adults, isn't it?

LB: That's the way I would read that.

RoV: Two different things. Or two things stemming from a common root.

MaC: That's putting in a vs. thing.

JH: Where does he say that?

LB: Page 40, second paragraph. "These observations lead to definitional concerns that we tend to coin new words. Andragogy gains meaning only when compared with pedagogy. However, andragogy is strictly speaking becomes a subset of pedagogy if the definition cited is both accurate and then a contrasting term." Which brings me to another point that was interesting and on the little challenge, I broke down the definition of pedagogy as the definition that I've seen in Knowles which is "the art and science of teaching children." On page 40 in the last two sentences of the first paragraph, this author talks about the "second meaning of pedagogy as the art or profession of teaching." And he took this from the American Heritage Dictionary. I don't know if these are dictionaries…

JH: I was going to say, if we want to be strict and purist, I think citations ought to include a date and if the American Heritage Dictionary has no date--which I'm sure it does--he did not include it.

MaC: One thing I will say about the American Heritage Dictionary, it was the required dictionary when I was taking "medical terminology" but it is THE best dictionary for giving the Greek and Latin derivatives.

LB: Which is what he bases this article on--the Greek and Latin issue.

MaC: And the American Heritage is the best one for that.

JH: What is the year on it? That's really the…

RuV: It comes about every 25 years, John. The latest one, I think, is 1993 or 1995. Prior to that was in the mid-70's.

MaC: And that was the one we were using for medical terminology.

RuV: Let me also point out that--and Lea brought this article and we had a discussion last Sunday--I was really somewhat, he was arguing semantics and he's broadbrushing with blame all over the place. Having after that read the two articles from van Gent and Savicevic, maybe what he's trying to do is bring some of that concern that the Europeans have of: "Hey! Do we really want to create a profession, a field, an 'ology'…" maybe he's bringing that to the United States now. So I may have changed my attitude in a week.

JH: Well, but I would raise the question whether he's doing that or not, if he was, he didn't cite that. He shows no awareness at all of andragogy being anywhere except the Knowles thing, isn't it?

MaC: Which is cited there.

RuV: But is that up until recently the real American situation, John? Did we even realize…?

JH: That's really not the question.

RuV: Okay.

JH: The question is, if he is a researcher and he is very concerned about language development, rather than using only Knowles popularization of the word "andragogy," where is his historical understanding of the term?

RuV: I agree with you.

LB: That's absolutely true, but I guess the only thing that concerns me MORE than he that he doesn't have the historical antecedent is this assumption that because words are formed incorrectly…

RuV: Therefore, the field doesn't exist.

LB: That's right! But there's a serious question about the actual existence of a theory of adult learning.

MaC: It gets the fool factor.

LB: That leap is--I don't understand that leap at all.

RoV: And he takes the contrary opinion from the perspective that if you look at page 41 "Practitioner Concerns," he's saying "…if we have inadequate underpinnings, we present ourselves with neither linguistic astuteness"--like that would make some difference to a lot of people. "…nor a sound basis for our practice and then we're not serious about it therefore incompetent in what we do" I think that's a leap.

RuV: Academic pendantry.

RoV: The idea that the word--I agree that we need to take care in the formation of these words and terms and definitions. That's part of the problem I'm having in what is this thing called "andragogy?" What is this thing called "pedagogy," for that matter? What is this thing called and all that? So I'm not arguing with his point that we need to be a little more precise about that and it would--we might be more astute. That's a good idea. But to say it in the manner which he does is so insulting to the whole field. It just causes everybody to raise up on their hackles…

RuV: You right-brain folks quit listening at that point, right?

RoV: Hello. And I think it loses its point--his point gets lost in his words because he makes the point go beyond what he needs to say.

LB: Absolutely. I agree. On the bottom of page 40 he says that his main point is that educators--last paragraph--"Furthermore, educators of adults are already faced with a plethora of choices to describe what may be unique about working with adults in their particular setting." Okay, I can agree with that statement. And I can even enter into the discussion about why it is or is not a good reason to add to the list. When he goes farther and this is exactly what Rosanne says and talks about, you know, what Mary said earlier--the "fool factor"--then I no longer want to get into discussion about the words that are used concerning the practice of adult education.

MaC: Well, I happened to be at Midwest and did go to this when he presented it and it's kind of like how many of you feel really super strongly about something that you could just go ballistic. His pet peeve is linguistics and, I mean, it was just--you could tell that he was just almost, I thought, almost unreasonable. There's no other word. If we don't get it right, we don't belong in the field.

RuV: He certainly doesn't display that unreasonableness here, does he? [Laughter]

MaC: No, but Trenton is a very, very interesting person and it's interesting since I've been seeing him at different Midwests and everything, I think he's mellowed a little, but this was one--this was a hot button for him. And we all have them.

LB: Yes!

RuV: And we're entitled.

MaC: But again--I guess I could say, yeah, we should be precise. It's like, you know, don't turn in your dissertation until there are no misspelled words, but the vehemence behind his viewpoint I think sort of colors this.

RuV: It doesn't diminish the value of his contribution.

MaC: No. If he'd stopped…

RuV: And I buy John's point that he--if he really was doing what I think is his contribution, he has, for whatever reason, brought the same issues of terminology that we saw on the European side in the prior two articles it is now in the American area of andragogy in adult education. And I think in the long run we may need to pay attention to this if we are to be a "gogy" or an "agology," whicever it is that we choose to be one day. I think we're going to have to pay attention to this.

KS: But we're still in the infant stage and you had--some of these "ologies" we had 300, 400 years ago. They started up and refined them and grew and the American language and most languages--ours is a growing language.

LB: A living language.

KS: It's a living language so, therefore, things will be changed. I mean, you look at psychology for example. Terms like "idiot," "dummy," "insane" were used for the mentally retarded. Now they're not appropriate but they're still there.

MaC: And the slang is all getting into the dictionary.

RuV: But, but, but, Kerry, to an extent, how long do you wish to be an adolescent?

KS: I agree with you.

RuV: We're a new field, a new discipline. All of that I hear. But did, you know, did we start in 1926 with Lindeman here in this country? Did we start in 1950 or 1960 with Knowles in this country? Did we start in 1920 with John Dewey in this country? Did we start in the 1860's with some of the…

MaC: 1833. Europe.

RuV: That's Europe. I'm specifically trying to limit it. But the argument of "hey! we're just in the development stage" somewhere along the line becomes a slightly long in the tooth argument.

KS: But is there a world organization that's going to standardize all those? That's my question right now. Is there a world organization out there that will help standardize these terms?

LB: Should it be standardized?

RuV: I'm not sure I'm willing to defer all the authority to that…

KS: Well, I'm just saying that because you're going to have your terms in different countries and different--from different philosophers or whatever you're going to call them. You've got the terms from Knowles. You've got the terms from, you know, the Nottingham Group. You've got other terms out there that they're not agreeing on. I'm not saying that's right or wrong or indifferent as far as this "ology," but I'm just saying that in psychology you've got set terms that are established that they have in the DMD and that they use and people have to learn that. In the computer field, you've got the same thing. You've got to know what these terms are in order to function in there, but we're almost like a half ad hoc term--let's add a new term--a new science, or a new sickness, a new that and it's not standardized. That's what the problem with my article was. Nothing was standardized. Everything was--pardon the language--bastardized by each country that did that or each researcher in that country because it was for their own betterment.

LB: Okay, so if you take that stand then we can't transform it. We should just use "adult education."

RuV: Or "adultology" would become an appropriate concept.

KS: Would you be offended if he used that? I don't know if I would be offended by that.

JH: By what"

KS: By using "adult education."

JH: In lieu of "andragogy?"

KS: In lieu of any term.

MaC: You make it Greek, though, it sounds more important.

KS: I'm just throwing that out. I don't care one way or another. The term--I interchange them, so…

MaC: One of my Japanese counterparts says: "In Japan we do not use the term 'adult education' because that's a triple X rated thing. It's 'lifelong learning.'"

RoV: Like adult movies.

JH: Well, in 1993, at the conference in Slovinia where we focused on rethinking adult education for development, Peter Jarvis proposed that we get rid of the terminology "adult education" and that the direction of the world at that particular time required that we get rid of that term because it was totally useless. There are those who, when you talk about adult education: "Oh, you mean somebody who didn't get their ABC's as a child?" And then you've got that whole argument or whatever to deal it.

RoV: Well, I think we need to solve the argument. We'll just consult Ferro about what kind of word we ought to use, dispense with all the rest, get his approval before we go any further…

LB: He talks about this, as well as the term "adult education." Lifelong learning, continuing education…

RoV: The problem I have with it primarily is that it's an argument about form over substance.

MaC: Um hmm.

KS: That the whole problem.

RM: Seems to me like the bottom line he's saying "You already got the words."

LB: That's right! You already have them. Which led to kind of create this little…

RuV: He's more French than the French.

JH: Well, what do you think, Mary, is the--who gave that article?--Lea. What do you think is the contribution of this?

LB: Oh, I actually think it can stimulate some very good conversation and dialogues about--it spurred me to create this little purple page about changing the title of this course, all right? I mean if andragogy, if there's no standard definition of the term and if the current definition of pedagogy is being extended--and now we only have the one source, one dictionary so we probably need to do some research with that, and there's some debate about adult ed--you know about the theory--maybe this it is a "Dialogue in Adult Education." But what is the most important contribution I think this article makes is the last question on the bottom of this purple page on "Discussion": How does the language of a profession influence its practice? I don't have an answer.

RoV: Well, I think there is an impact. For instance, we don't talk about--I'm on a board that works with ex-offenders, and we don't call them prisoners, or incarcerated ones. We call them "ex--offenders." Once they are released, they are ex-offenders. We don't call them "ex-cons" or all those other terms. That has--that terminology, our reference to them is not just political correctness but it's by means of raising the respect that people have to people once they're out of that system, once they're no longer institutionalized in the criminal justice system. So we call them ex-offenders, which is different than ex-con, just connotatively speaking. It DOES make a difference. We don't call it "probation and parole." We call it "restorative justice," is what we do with them. So there's a whole different thing. It doesn't mean the process is any great difference perhaps all the time, but it does mean that we have raised our consciousness perhaps. Maybe that's worthwhile.

LB: Well, and I do think words, the use of language and the use of words, affect the way we think of the practice or the-- I mean, I worked in "residence life" for many, many years.

RuV: Must have been Wash U, then.

LB: No, it's not. It's everywhere. And when you're in that field of residential life, you don't use the term "dorm." And that "d" word sends chills down my spine.

RuV: I love it!

LB: "Residence house."

RuV: And, having been there, it's a dorm.

LB: And then all of a sudden there was a wave of you no longer call things "cafeterias," you call them "dining halls." And it was a clear example of how words influence your thoughts about either a practice, a profession or a discipline, a field, activities. And so I think that is the contribution of this kind of article. It brings those kinds of questions into the discussion.

MaC: I'd like to throw something out just to think about. In my somewhat limited experience with multiple universities, there are still a number of universities that what they consider "adult education." And that's an okay term. It's usually hooked up with something else. But when adult education starts taking a lesser position, it's been my experience that the ones where they barely tell their people about Knowles, much less somebody like Lindeman and andragogy is never mentioned.

RoV: Which was Roger's point this morning. In fact, Lea's point just now. Even in higher ed.

LB: Looking back I can't believe I never heard about it.

JH: While we are talking about linguistics and dictionaries…

RuV: You just happen to have one.

JH: American Dictionary of the English Language by Noah Webster, 1828. Wasn't he the first gentleman that came up with an American dictionary?

RuV: And this year's edition you're about to cite…

JH: No! This is a reprint of the 1828 dictionary. "Pedagogical: suiting or belonging to a teacher of children or to a pedagogue." "Pedagogue: a teacher of children, one whose occupation is to instruct young children. a school master." Let's find out this other word--hold on just a minute. One other, it says "a pedant."

RuV: Maybe it does belong in academe.

JH: A pedant is "a school master or a person who makes a vain display of his learning." "Pedagogue: to teach with an air of a pedagogue, to instruct superciliously." And "superciliously means haughtily, dogmatically, with an air of contempt."

RuV: Sounds professorial to me! [Laughter]

RoV: Well, we're in the right place then. Can you copy that and put it on the bulletin board?

JH: Okay, "supercilious" says "lofty, with pride, haughty, dictatorial, overbearing, manifesting haughtiness or proceeding from it." "Overbearing: has a supercilious air or supercilious behavior."

RoV: We could accuse them of pedaoguery, then. [Laughter]

MaC: Pedagoguery?

RuV: Certainly pedantic pedagoguery!

JH: Then it gets into pedagogy, the noun itself. Interesting. It says: "Instruction in the first rudiments, preparatory discipline."

RuV: That would make sense.

LB: But I think the point is…

RuV: Well, will you look up "andragogy," please?

JH: It is not in there.

RuV: Now you understand why we have an argument in the first place. You have a dissimilarity in the timeline.

JH: This was published five years before Kapps brought the word into existence.

LB: But I venture to guess that many, many, many words in that dictionary if you were to get a current dictionary, will have very different definitions and meanings. And so it's the growth and development and the change of a living language, and so I would look up "pedagogy" in a more current dictionary and see what the definition is.

RuV: But you would use multiple dictionaries.

JH: You see, the Germans and Jost Reichman, he and I argued for 10 hours going from Germany to Slovinia on this whole thing. And he's saying that pedagogy meant a good practice of education with everybody.

LB: Meant or means? Currenlty.

MaC: But he changed his mind.

JH: Well, with--anyway, that's what it historically meant. He did change his mind, and he's the one that renamed his Chair of Adult Education in Bamberg when he went to it, he called it the Chair of Andragogy.

RuV: But that is, as we saw in the early article and as I lived it when I grew up, that is the way the term typically is used both in academic and colloquial environments. Pedagogy to a European equates "education" to us.

JH: But I think it's interesting that Savicevic says that Comenius in the 17^th century "…his cultural heritage gives us ground for regarding him as the founder of andragogy," although as far as we know, he never used the term. He says: "Our primary wish is not to seek to develop to the full degree of humaneness only individuals or only some or several people but, rather, one and all." Young and old. Known and unknown. Men and women. In a word, all those who are fated to be born and man so that ultimately the whole human race would find culture regardless of age, class, sex and nationality.

RoV: Well, I'll bet you Comenius thought of the word "andragogy" and said: "No way am I getting into that!" [Laughter]

MK: I have one more term to add if we have time for it. I have a real short article.

RoV: While that's going around, Roger?

RM: Oh, I was just going to talk about how language influences practice and, of course, we have our own set of language.

RuV: In aviation?

RoV: Got any Greek words?

RM: We had an airplane that wouldn't take off, the engine failed, and so Captain got on and made an announcement that we're going back because we've lost an engine. And the passenger looked up, rang the flight attendant call bell and said: "Tell the Captain I found it!"

MK: This was one of the little articles from the microfiche by Judith -----. Her basic tenet of this is just to examine the word "andragogy" and determine its appropriateness in the context of adult education in Britain. She said in Britain, the term "andragogy" is likened to the word "disadvantaged" whereas here in the United States with Malcolm Knowles elevated it to the status of guru, so she's proposing that this is not really adequate for their term. She said the word "andra" is derived from the Greek word meaning "man" and, therefore, it's the education of man and, to do that is to exclude women.

RuV: Got it!

JH: Do you have a date on this article?

MK: No, I didn't get that.

RuV: My suspicion is the mid-80's.

MaC: Yeah, all the references are 70's and 80's.

MK: But, anyway, she takes it to an extreme. She makes the leap from "where does the adult education mean for man…

MK: She says most of the gender-based for women, you know the word "gyne" and use that and that would include everybody.

RoV: But then you could have the argument: "Why don't you call it 'andragynagogy'?" [Laughter]

MaC: I like that one better!

RuV: Her whole tone is women first.

MaC: Well, there are the larger population.

RM: How in the world did this get published?

MK: I just thought this was a good way to end it.

LB: You don't think this was from a refereed journal, do you?

RM: Now? Today?

JH: That probably would have come from the Scutura, the English proceedings of adult education Scutura Conference.

RuV: This is a conference type thing. This sort of stuff, Roger, gets in conferences. Some of it actually gets in print.

MaC: Conference proceedings get in print.

LB: "…gender-based interpretation of the term."

RuV: Neat! Thank you, Margie. We'll have fun with it.

JH: Question. Are we headed in the direction that we need to be headed?

RoV: Yeah, but you all are going to have to do less talking because I've got more transcription this week!

LB: I think this is great!

RM: This is so good.

RoV: This is really good.

KS: What's on the agenda for next week? Same thing?

RoV: More of the same.

JH: If you've got an article, get that prepared. If you haven't given one, maybe we'll spy for some of those next time and see where we go with it. I've got a couple of articles that I think will even set the American context in a little bit different light than what we've seen before. And we'll begin to fan out and expand out conception and we'll add to our timeline and we'll add to our whatever else and begin to get some additional perspectives.

RuV: May I interrupt for a second, Dr. Henschke? You were very, very kind in asking whether we feel that we're getting to see an objective and maybe go toward it, but my suspicion is that you had an objective in establishing this course in the first place. So let's turn the table. Do you feel we're going in the direction that you wanted to go after? Yes, I understand part of it was our learning, but you had some objectives of your own.

JH: Well, I will articulate that for you and the answer is "yes" because if I didn't feel like it was going in the direction that I'd like to see it go, I certainly would not fail in my prerogative and my responsibility to say: "We need to add some things to that were not being included." And I really am excited about what is taking place, the stuff that is emerging and I'm not--I almost feel hesitant about devoting so much time to doing this transcription but I think it's just fantastic.

RoV: Well, if I can do that more so and let other people do the articles, that would be fine with me.

JH: That would be wonderful.

RoV: And personally I think it's the best contribution I can make to the process.

RM: Could we just get a few more handouts, though? [Laughter]

JH: This is in place of that $85 book or whatever, you know.

KS: Next week I'll bring binders for everybody. I've got about 7 or 8 cases, so don't buy a binder. I've got them.

JH: Wonderful! That's two weeks from today, right? I want to make sure this stuff gets into an archive.

RuV: Well, what I suggested this morning is that we can set up a web page with much of this material.